New decision in Holstein

[QUOTE=Elles;8070049]
And yes it is Tom Reed ;-).
http://www.horse-gate-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?52-Mut-zum-Blut-Edle-Tropfen[/QUOTE]

Interesting response by fanniemae. I don’t agree with it, if I am getting her meaning correctly.

While just about any TB can compete at preliminary, it still takes a good jumper to successfully compete at the upper levels. Some horses, if they are very clever, can get by with slithering over/ banking jumps, but the horse has to be very clever and still very athletic not to fall. So why wouldn’t you want a horse with an excess of jumping talent jumping big solid obstacles? A horse that has to jump a sizable stadium course the next day?

I just think the argument against looking for a good jumping TB is a faux one. When breeding for an eventer why wouldn’t you want both parents to be good jumpers?

I do agree however that there will probably always be a pool of TBs among racehorses that are talented for eventing. Such horses need to be the total package though; good mover, good jumper, sound with good feet, and sensible. Those don’t just grow on trees.

I just read the following:
bzgl. xx hat der Verband aber beschlossen auch Anpaarungen von letztem Jahr, also Fohlen, die in 2015 geboren sind / werden, einzutragen.

regarding xx the Association has decided that also pairings of last year, so foals that are born in 2015 are allowed to enter the studbook.

I just went through the list of 1700+ mares that have been entered into the Hanoverian Verband’s Jumper Breeding Program. As far as I can tell, not a single one was bred last year to a TB stallion.

Instead, consistent with Tom Reed’s premise, the owners of these mares appear to be using “blooded” WBs on their heavier mares (as suggested by their pedigrees).

Well not too long ago the breeders of these horses had their dams covered by a Thoroughbred:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=J49ibI_qU0U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gopxcvJ8pm4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2oVuFpylTo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-ig3ouUPjA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ-kVlRAgjo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLLsjgr_P-Y
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWmR5MmqT4E
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx6ZHa8SvEA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jYDGnE_sUM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHRIfqrlEWA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-kI-ouus3M
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wgTU6er3P8
www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB2StVo86jA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxDD7mqQW58
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkbgSwoIgkY
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU23B-PRo5M
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQXdavHFAGg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4p8Jhp3Sng
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs9qZ48HmYM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8edcU8VMXs
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA0FRYigZ-c

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8071985]
I just went through the list of 1700+ mares that have been entered into the Hanoverian Verband’s Jumper Breeding Program. As far as I can tell, not a single one was bred last year to a TB stallion.

Instead, consistent with Tom Reed’s premise, the owners of these mares appear to be using “blooded” WBs on their heavier mares (as suggested by their pedigrees).[/QUOTE]

Where is this info? Is it available to the general public?

[QUOTE=Elles;8072073]
Well not too long ago the breeders of these horses had their dams covered by a Thoroughbred:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=J49ibI_qU0U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gopxcvJ8pm4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2oVuFpylTo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-ig3ouUPjA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ-kVlRAgjo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLLsjgr_P-Y
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWmR5MmqT4E
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx6ZHa8SvEA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jYDGnE_sUM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHRIfqrlEWA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-kI-ouus3M
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wgTU6er3P8
www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB2StVo86jA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxDD7mqQW58
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkbgSwoIgkY
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU23B-PRo5M
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQXdavHFAGg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4p8Jhp3Sng
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs9qZ48HmYM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8edcU8VMXs
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA0FRYigZ-c[/QUOTE]

Elles…no one cares about what TB stallions were used yesteryear. Todays breeding doesn’t require them. Same as if you brought Capitol back from the dead…I wouldn’t use him now because todays breeding requirement has passed him by.

I’ve been saying it for years that we have a beautiful “hybrid” animal right now…Tom refers to it as ultra modern …and we are saying the same thing.

If you go and see the mares today , you will know that most don’t need a TB stallion. They have enough blood , quick reflexes , ample intelligence , modern outward appearance and heart.

Why would anyone take a mare like this to a TB stallion right now ? What could you possibly hope to gain ?

We all know you are a fan of Tb’s but give it a rest ! No matter how many links to Tb’s you throw up here…it’s not going to make breeders use them.

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8071985]
I just went through the list of 1700+ mares that have been entered into the Hanoverian Verband’s Jumper Breeding Program. As far as I can tell, not a single one was bred last year to a TB stallion.

Instead, consistent with Tom Reed’s premise, the owners of these mares appear to be using “blooded” WBs on their heavier mares (as suggested by their pedigrees).[/QUOTE]

Again, as far as I can tell, none of the nearly 1800 mares that were in the program in 2014 were bred the prior year to TB stallions either.

I would suggest that the WB breeders study what has happened to the American riding & light harness horse breeds.

Morgans and Standardbreds started with a TB stallion. They got a type of horse that had non-TB characteristics, and they decided to emphasize the non-TB characteristics and bred descendents of the F1 males–Justin Morgan’s sons established the Morgan breed (TB sire). As far as I know there has been no TB infusion since the first 2 (?) generations of the Morgan breed.

*Messenger’s grandsons, from native trotting mares were used to establish the Standardbred (or is it great grandsons, I’m tired, forgive me.) In the 1800’s there were heated discussions on how the TB killed the Standardbred trot and how the Standardbred breed no longer needed anything from the TB.

The gaited breeds are descended from American horses, often with copious infusions of Morgan or Standardbred, so their TB blood is usually extremely distant in the pedigrees of today’s horses.

When Americans ended the infusions of the TB blood in their breeds, their breeds became specialists, the Morgan specialized in being the most versatile American breed, the Standardbred specialized to harness, the gaited breeds specialized in being superior “park” quality easy gaited or very flashy riding/light harness horses.

Of course the QH is also descended from a TB sire line. The QH also became specialized, as a reasonably versatile Western horse. However, since QHs are FAST, TB sprinter blood was allowed to come in, muscles with fast-twitch fibers mated to muscles with fast-twitch fibers, to form the Appendix QH which can be a quality riding animal for sport in the hunter/jumper field, especially as lesson horses!

What the TB blood brings in is OPTIONS. Galloping ability is improved–the TB specialty is the gallop after all. I’ve noticed in the Holstein how the TB outcrosses lengthened the croup, put in decent withers, deepened the chest (more lung/heart room) refined the neck, and increased the length & slope of the shoulders. AND (I know I speak heresy,) improves the jumping ability.

I am sort of puzzled by the comments I’ve read about the TB bringing in intelligence and endurance. Yes, some TBs have very good brains, but when I was young their reputation was the opposite. Compared to the Arab, Morgan, American Saddlebred and QH the TB was considered crazy and sort of dumb, and harder to train. TBs were for the more advanced riders. Half TBs were OK for lower level riders, 3/4 for better riders, then full for good riders. The TB brings in athletic ability, not brains in the USA.

Endurance? Arabs of course are better, but for long rides not at top speed the Morgan does quite well, as can the ASB & other gaited breeds. Standardbreds have a well earned reputation as being tough and enduring (heat races, 2 out of three.) TB endurance is for long gallops, but an equally fit Arab can gallop for a far greater distances near their top speed, and I suspect an equally fit Standardbred would be keeping pace and distance too, though at the slower trot or pace.

BUT, if I were able (I can’t) to ride cross-country at a gallop over land that neither I or the horse had been over before (not a groomed course), I want a TB under me. At the unexpected disastrous jump the TB can react to the situation quicker, alter the strength of their take off, stretch just a little further, recover from a bad landing better, and keep on going several miles at the hunting gallop.

And this is lost the longer you go from the TB blood. Gallops, athletic ability, a certain amount of endurance, and when that is gone it stays gone. Sorry.

Or you could compromise on height and go to the PURE Arabs. Russian or Polish Arabs would probably be your best bet.

Good luck. Your present horses are IMPRESSIVE!

Jackie, you haven’t heard of the X factor? Secretariat was famous for large heart, which was responsible for his incredible endurance at speed. Saddlebreds who have good endurance almost certainly got it from Thoroughbreds.

TBs are fine for ammy riders. They may need a 6 month letdown from the track, then many are like any other horse. If you want a horse that can take care of you crosscountry, a TB is an excellent horse to have due to their incentive, try, and ability to size up a situation quickly. They can definitely bring in brains in the US. Ask George Morris. Ask any event rider.

The impressive horse aren’t ours. The most impressive horses are coming from Europe.

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8072855]
Again, as far as I can tell, none of the nearly 1800 mares that were in the program in 2014 were bred the prior year to TB stallions either.[/QUOTE]

Shutterfly: http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/112181

Please spare me the lecture about how horses like Forrest xx don’t exist anymore. My mare was a 1986 model. All of the good horses haven’t disappeared in one generation.

[QUOTE=Elles;8072073]
Well not too long ago the breeders of these horses had their dams covered by a Thoroughbred:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=J49ibI_qU0U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gopxcvJ8pm4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2oVuFpylTo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-ig3ouUPjA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ-kVlRAgjo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLLsjgr_P-Y
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWmR5MmqT4E
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx6ZHa8SvEA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jYDGnE_sUM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHRIfqrlEWA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-kI-ouus3M
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wgTU6er3P8
www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB2StVo86jA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxDD7mqQW58
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkbgSwoIgkY
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU23B-PRo5M
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQXdavHFAGg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4p8Jhp3Sng
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs9qZ48HmYM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8edcU8VMXs
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA0FRYigZ-c[/QUOTE]

Nice group of horses–I find it interesting that most (all?) of them are less than about 6 years old. Apparently some current breeders still see some value to breeding their warmblood mares to TBs.

Grayarabpony, yes I have learned of the X-factor, big heart genes. The TB is unsurpassed for galloping at high speed for up to 5 miles, and for a more moderate speed the TB can go further. Unfortunately the super hardy TB lines for the long racing speed gallops, the stayers, have faded, partially because there are no longer flat races for them, say like the old 2 mile races the great TB gelding Kelso ran in so long ago. If there are no big purse races to run stayers in, the stayers have no market, TB breeders do not breed the lines, and the stayers with any speed that still insist on being born often end up in the steeplechase races if they are not good enough for the Belmont Stakes.

I have no argument that the TB can bring greater endurance to the WB’s, that comes from the bigger hearts and lungs, as well as the TB nervous system, which was originally developed for 4 mile heat races, with many races running three heats (12 miles of racing gallop in an afternoon.) Today the fashion seems to demand sprinters and routers (mile or so), not the enduring TB stayers who often tended to jump decently too.

As for TB disposition, the first horse I rode independently after a 5 year gap due to several big MS exacerbations, was an teenage OTTB mare, Maggie. Her owner put me up on her, and by the third stride of the walk Maggie told me that she would obey my aids, forgave me my uncertain balance, the tremors in my hands, and my rapid onset fatigue, and gave me good, calm, and productive rides for many months. I still miss you Maggie.

Yes, the impressive horses are from Europe. These impressive horses seem to depend on frequent infusion of TB, Shagya Arab, or other hot blood. This is fine, the results are wonderful, and the quality of the WB horses have improved greatly. I was pointing out that there are dangers in rejecting fresh infusions of TB blood by the breeders, and bringing up the American breeds as proof. While an American Saddlebred can be conditioned to run for many, many miles, a properly conditioned TB will still do it faster. While a properly conditioned Arab can usually beat a properly conditioned TB over 100 miles, TBs can usually leave the Arabs in the dust for the first 10-20 miles. Over a quarter mile TB speed reliably beats other breeds of horses until the TB gives out after many miles, when the Arab can finally pass the TB. TBs for speed and endurance for miles, Arab for endurance for loooong distances at a more moderate speed. The TB/hot blood characteristic of HEART necessary for both, that refusal to give up, that determination to keep going even past that particular animal’s physical limitations, in response to the demands of the rider or driver.

Warm bloods need hot bloods to keep improving. The TB has the best “package” of hot blood characteristics for the top levels of international competition in the Olympic level sports.

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8073790]
Grayarabpony, yes I have learned of the X-factor, big heart genes. The TB is unsurpassed for galloping at high speed for up to 5 miles, and for a more moderate speed the TB can go further. Unfortunately the super hardy TB lines for the long racing speed gallops, the stayers, have faded, partially because there are no longer flat races for them, say like the old 2 mile races the great TB gelding Kelso ran in so long ago. If there are no big purse races to run stayers in, the stayers have no market, TB breeders do not breed the lines, and the stayers with any speed that still insist on being born often end up in the steeplechase races if they are not good enough for the Belmont Stakes.

I have no argument that the TB can bring greater endurance to the WB’s, that comes from the bigger hearts and lungs, as well as the TB nervous system, which was originally developed for 4 mile heat races, with many races running three heats (12 miles of racing gallop in an afternoon.) Today the fashion seems to demand sprinters and routers (mile or so), not the enduring TB stayers who often tended to jump decently too.

As for TB disposition, the first horse I rode independently after a 5 year gap due to several big MS exacerbations, was an teenage OTTB mare, Maggie. Her owner put me up on her, and by the third stride of the walk Maggie told me that she would obey my aids, forgave me my uncertain balance, the tremors in my hands, and my rapid onset fatigue, and gave me good, calm, and productive rides for many months. I still miss you Maggie.

Yes, the impressive horses are from Europe. These impressive horses seem to depend on frequent infusion of TB, Shagya Arab, or other hot blood. This is fine, the results are wonderful, and the quality of the WB horses have improved greatly. I was pointing out that there are dangers in rejecting fresh infusions of TB blood by the breeders, and bringing up the American breeds as proof. While an American Saddlebred can be conditioned to run for many, many miles, a properly conditioned TB will still do it faster. While a properly conditioned Arab can usually beat a properly conditioned TB over 100 miles, TBs can usually leave the Arabs in the dust for the first 10-20 miles. Over a quarter mile TB speed reliably beats other breeds of horses until the TB gives out after many miles, when the Arab can finally pass the TB. TBs for speed and endurance for miles, Arab for endurance for loooong distances at a more moderate speed. The TB/hot blood characteristic of HEART necessary for both, that refusal to give up, that determination to keep going even past that particular animal’s physical limitations, in response to the demands of the rider or driver.

Warm bloods need hot bloods to keep improving. The TB has the best “package” of hot blood characteristics for the top levels of international competition in the Olympic level sports.[/QUOTE]

I was just a little baffled by your confusion about TB endurance. For true endurance events the Arabian is the undisputed champion, but for dressage, eventing and showjumping a horse needs endurance over shorter intense effects like a TB has.

I think part of the trend toward sprinters in racing is the effort to get a sprinter that stays, like Secretariat. Then there’s the incredibly popular Northern Dancer, a sprinter who won the Derby but wasn’t the stayer that Secretariat was.

There are still stayers out there, although unfortunately overall they are not that popular at stud in flat racing. It’s a shame that the interest in early speed supersedes breeding for classic distance top and bottom. The long distances are still being raced in Europe. You might want to look up the champion stayer Yeats, bred in Ireland (and a Northern Dancer grandson!): http://www.pedigreequery.com/yeats2. http://coolmore.com/stallions/yeats/?farm=national_hunt (I can’t post a link to video from my iPad.)

This is a beautiful horse too! http://coolmore.com/stallions/oscar/?farm=national_hunt

It’s too bad breeders aren’t going for a stayer type with speed (like Man o’ War) rather than a sprinter that can stay, because sprinter quickness is very valuable to the modern sporthorse, but the sprinter build, not as much. I don’t know if today’s emphasis in the US on fast-maturing sprinters will change though.

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8073280]
Please spare me the lecture about how horses like Forrest xx don’t exist anymore. My mare was a 1986 model. All of the good horses haven’t disappeared in one generation.[/QUOTE]

Are you seriously going to hold Forrest xx out as the poster child for TB jumper sires?

Yes. Why don’t you scroll down on that link and actually look at his descendants. In fact, he produced both jumpers and dressage horses.

We could also look at the Dutch bred Authentic, who is 72% blood. http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/12688

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8075085]
Yes. Why don’t you scroll down on that link and actually look at his descendants. In fact, he produced both jumpers and dressage horses.

We could also look at the Dutch bred Authentic, who is 72% blood. http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/12688[/QUOTE]

Would you please quit talking about “blood” . Authentic is NOT a TB !

All these examples you and Elles post are not top horses. You want to know why few are using Tb’s ? Look no further than your own examples. These examples don’t stand a chance in hell at competing at the upper levels.

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8074717]
Are you seriously going to hold Forrest xx out as the poster child for TB jumper sires?[/QUOTE]

Oh, I get it - an early April Fool’s joke! Very funny!!!

Let me propose a possible selection criteria for TB outcrossing.

I have noticed among the modern WBs a hind end conformation selection that results in high tail carriage. This is noticeable particularly over the jumps. The “gaily” carried tail seems to go along with the particular flexibility of the WB loin among the best jumpers, which results in the hind legs clearing more jumps.

I just looked at the video of the Chilean TB Huaso clearing the world record jump, this time concentrating on Huaso’s tail and loin. For a TB Huaso carried his tail up, during the approach and during the jump and landing. While Huaso did not have the particular WB loin movement when his hind legs passed over the jump, he had enough flexibility so he could “kick” his hind legs back rather than bending his hind leg joints.

Could a somewhat “gaily” carried tail in a TB be a valid selection criteria? I’m not really talking about a gaily carried tail at play, I am talking about a gaily carried tail at moments of supreme physical exertion, like at the end of a 1 1/4 mile or longer race.

Since TB lines do not have proven lineages of 1.6 meter jumpers, another valid selection criteria has to be used. Could a TB with a more “gaily” carried tail in supreme competition blend better with the WB lines with an even more “gaily” carried tail? Could this be a sign of greater flexibility in the loin for horses with longer backs than the Arabs?

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8065470]
No. I’m not going to answer such a ridiculous question.

Only on COTH would someone ask why a WEG show jumping winner and a horse with a stellar showjumping career that includes WEG and Olympic medals are good jumpers. :lol:[/QUOTE]

I can say this because GrayArabPony has me on ignore. But I always think it’s hilarious that this poster acts like such an expert in all matters equine when
1.) she has not bred a single horse
2.) she does very little actual riding – IIRC she has an Arab x she messes with occasionally.
3.) she doesn’t have much of a horseman’s eye as far as I can tell. She had very unkind things to say about 2 of my foals; one of which is currently owned by a professional dressage rider & aimed for the YH competitions and who got rave “reviews” from Alfredo Hernandez, and the other one, who tied for Reserve Champion Filly in the nation for her inspection year.

You gotta watch the Internet…where anyone can be an expert.:wink:

BTW, for those who say the (American) TB has changed since “the old days” (and not for the better) – I have to agree. Haven’t had a ton of experience with sport-bred TBs, but I worked on the track for over a decade starting in 1972 and the “average” TB I saw had bigger bone, better feet & a larger frame than the “average” TB I see these days.

IMHO this is because breeders are breeding to sell and what is selling is quick maturing youngsters with precocious speed. This tends to not produce horses for the classic distances, and I would not think it would produce horses for sport either.

To be fair, GAP has stated repeatedly that she did indeed breed her mare once.

I think Forrest xx was brought up because of his daughter, Famm, who was an extraordinary producer by anyone’s standards.

Ironically, he is an excellent example of Bayhawk’s point that TB sires in Holstein are used to produce broodmares and that the real results start with the F2s.