New decision in Holstein

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8075702]
I can say this because GrayArabPony has me on ignore. But I always think it’s hilarious that this poster acts like such an expert in all matters equine when
1.) she has not bred a single horse
2.) she does very little actual riding – IIRC she has an Arab x she messes with occasionally.
3.) she doesn’t have much of a horseman’s eye as far as I can tell. She had very unkind things to say about 2 of my foals; one of which is currently owned by a professional dressage rider & aimed for the YH competitions and who got rave “reviews” from Alfredo Hernandez, and the other one, who tied for Reserve Champion Filly in the nation for her inspection year.

You gotta watch the Internet…where anyone can be an expert.

BTW, for those who say the (American) TB has changed since “the old days” (and not for the better) – I have to agree. Haven’t had a ton of experience with sport-bred TBs, but I worked on the track for over a decade starting in 1972 and the “average” TB I saw had bigger bone, better feet & a larger frame than the “average” TB I see these days.

IMHO this is because breeders are breeding to sell and what is selling is quick maturing youngsters with precocious speed. This tends to not produce horses for the classic distances, and I would not think it would produce horses for sport either.[/QUOTE]

Before importing mares and having full Wb mares was common, many people used Tb mares with Wb stallions and that is the reason we were not able to compete for years with the Europeans. Ironically, GAP keeps insulting NA breeders by saying we don’t produce anything, well traditionally it was because of our mare base. Now we do produce really nice horses but not as many as Europe because we do not produce the numbers.

I made the ignore club too! :yes:

[grayarabpony]

Kyzteke, none of what you posted about me is true.

No wonder I have you on ignore. I only looked because tuckaway intimated that you said something nasty (and untrue) and of course you did. Channeling bayhawk now, are you?

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8075784]
Before importing mares and having full Wb mares was common, many people used Tb mares with Wb stallions and that is the reason we were not able to compete for years with the Europeans. Ironically, GAP keeps insulting NA breeders by saying we don’t produce anything, well traditionally it was because of our mare base. Now we do produce really nice horses but not as many as Europe because we do not produce the numbers.

I made the ignore club too! :yes:[/QUOTE]

The superstars the US has produced have been TBs, although of course most weren’t purpose bred.

Despite all of the anti-TB rhetoric on this forum, two of the most successful breeders on here have stood a TB sire. There’s pwynnnorman, who bred a 4* event horse and Pan American silver medalist along with champion pony hunters, and Fred, who has bred an advanced eventer turned GP jumper, another highly successful eventer, and then there are grandchildren that competed in the Pan American Games in dressage.

Of course you made the ignore club. You posted a bunch of inaccurate history about Traks and then called me a troll when I corrected you. :lol: Your ideas about the origins of the TB breed were pretty hilariously inaccurate too. If you guys are going to try to pass yourselves as experts, at least get your facts straight.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8075345]
Oh, I get it - an early April Fool’s joke! Very funny!!![/QUOTE]

Forrest xx produced a 1.4m jumper and 5 Grand Prix dressage horses, along with several other jumpers. And that’s just going from horse telex. His grand get include the following 1.6m jumpers: Shutterfly, HH Let’s Fly, Remedi D, and Coriba, along with many other jumpers.

If you don’t view that as successful breeding, I don’t know what to tell you. I mean, you guys are supposedly interested in breeding top horses, aren’t you? Well, the above is a model for it right there.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8075499]
Let me propose a possible selection criteria for TB outcrossing.

I have noticed among the modern WBs a hind end conformation selection that results in high tail carriage. This is noticeable particularly over the jumps. The “gaily” carried tail seems to go along with the particular flexibility of the WB loin among the best jumpers, which results in the hind legs clearing more jumps.

I just looked at the video of the Chilean TB Huaso clearing the world record jump, this time concentrating on Huaso’s tail and loin. For a TB Huaso carried his tail up, during the approach and during the jump and landing. While Huaso did not have the particular WB loin movement when his hind legs passed over the jump, he had enough flexibility so he could “kick” his hind legs back rather than bending his hind leg joints.

Could a somewhat “gaily” carried tail in a TB be a valid selection criteria? I’m not really talking about a gaily carried tail at play, I am talking about a gaily carried tail at moments of supreme physical exertion, like at the end of a 1 1/4 mile or longer race.

Since TB lines do not have proven lineages of 1.6 meter jumpers, another valid selection criteria has to be used. Could a TB with a more “gaily” carried tail in supreme competition blend better with the WB lines with an even more “gaily” carried tail? Could this be a sign of greater flexibility in the loin for horses with longer backs than the Arabs?[/QUOTE]

I’d say no. I haven’t noticed top TB jumpers carrying their tails especially high.

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8075150]
Would you please quit talking about “blood” . Authentic is NOT a TB ! [/QUOTE]

No of course not–a purebred TB has to be 100% TB. Authentic is a magnificent horse–no question there–but he’s only 72% TB, with the remaining 28% being “something else.” Still, genetically speaking, he’s more TB than anything else.

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8075963]
Forrest xx produced a 1.4m jumper and 5 Grand Prix dressage horses, along with several other jumpers. And that’s just going from horse telex. His grand get include the following 1.6m jumpers: Shutterfly, HH Let’s Fly, Remedi D, and Coriba, along with many other jumpers.

If you don’t view that as successful breeding, I don’t know what to tell you. I mean, you guys are supposedly interested in breeding top horses, aren’t you? Well, the above is a model for it right there.[/QUOTE]

It is not that significant. I am not saying that the horses you refer to are bad horses. The only one I know is Shutterfly and he was a phenomenom. But However, if what we see is representative of its production, it is nothing more thant what we could expect from a TB stallion standing in this region in the 80’s. MOreover, It shows exactly what, wether you want it or not, Bayhawk was trying to explain. If the stallion had an impact, it was mainly through its daughters, when bred on big, probably older type, Hanoverian mares from good damlines.

[Cumano]

If you want an example of a recent TB stallion I think made a significant impact on sporthorse breeding, I think of Julio Mariner. If you look at its progeny on Horsetelex, you will se a couple of decent products but nothing stellar (a couple of 1m60 horses and a bunch of good 1m20 to 1m40 jumpers). He produced smaller mares, with a lot of blood, quick of the ground, and on the smaller side. When you look at them, honnestly, most of them look like nothing. But bred to bigger and more powerfull stallions, they brought back what was needed from the TB, carefulness, reactiveness, blood, quickness, etc.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8076005]
No of course not–a purebred TB has to be 100% TB. Authentic is a magnificent horse–no question there–but he’s only 72% TB, with the remaining 28% being “something else.” Still, genetically speaking, he’s more TB than anything else.[/QUOTE]

Apparently bayhawk doesn’t understand the pedigrees on horse telex. Authentic has a great deal of TB blood. 72%, just like I said. Dutch bred, just like I said.

Authentic’s dam sire Katell xx sired at least 1 1.4m jumper and 1 1.6m jumper, along with Goldstar who is listed as a national level show jumper. His grand get include at least 2 1.6m jumpers.

And then in the 3rd generation of Shutterfly you’ve got Sacramento Song, who ended up founding both prominent jumping and dressage lines.

Breeders on here seem to be so intimidated by discussion of TBs on here for some reason. Why don’t you let your own results do the talking?

[Cumano]

72% of TB blood doesn’t make him more of a TB than a Warmblood. He is simply not a TB. He is a modern warmblood. He is an example of the best way TB was used in SJ breeding in the netherlands. It is not the amount of TB blood over 7 or 8 generation that make the horse. It is about which TB was used, when, why and how. The result is the modern warmblood. No one ever denied the impact the TB had over the years, but not everyone agrees, even amongst the best breeders in US, Europe or anywhere, about its necessity as of today. The credit is not only on the TB, it is about the genius of the breeders who knew how to use it in their WB breeding program.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8076076]
72% of TB blood doesn’t make him more of a TB than a Warmblood. He is simply not a TB. He is a modern warmblood. He is an example of the best way TB was used in SJ breeding in the netherlands. It is not the amount of TB blood over 7 or 8 generation that make the horse. It is about which TB was used, when, why and how. The result is the modern warmblood. No one ever denied the impact the TB had over the years, but not everyone agrees, even amongst the best breeders in US, Europe or anywhere, about its necessity as of today. The credit is not only on the TB, it is about the genius of the breeders who knew how to use it in their WB breeding program.[/QUOTE]

Who said Authentic is a TB? I didn’t. I said he was 72% blood. This is the last time I am saying it. :lol: Shoot I even linked to his pedigree on horse telex.

The amount of blood very often does have an effect on the horse.

[Cumano]

Apparently bayhawk doesn’t understand the pedigrees on horse telex. Authentic has a great deal of TB blood. 72%, just like I said. Dutch bred, just like I said.

In answer to

Still, genetically speaking, he’s more TB than anything else.

My point is that he is not more a TB than anything else. What Bayhawk said was true.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8076118]
Who said Authentic is a TB? I didn’t. I said he was 72% blood. This is the last time I am saying it. :lol: Shoot I even linked to his pedigree on horse telex.

The amount of blood very often does have an effect on the horse.[/QUOTE]

No…you were of course trying to claim Authentic’s success on the fact that he has a high degree of blood.

If you had ever stood on the rail and watched him in about 20 Grand Prixs like I have , you wouldn’t be so quick to claim his success on TB blood as he goes and jumps nothing like a TB.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8076147]
In answer to

My point is that he is not more a TB than anything else. What Bayhawk said was true.[/QUOTE]

Well, actually he is more TB than anything else, genetically speaking. Now you’re saying that what is basically a percentage of genes is not relevant? Couldn’t disagree more. LOL

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8076076]
72% of TB blood doesn’t make him more of a TB than a Warmblood. He is simply not a TB. He is a modern warmblood. He is an example of the best way TB was used in SJ breeding in the netherlands. It is not the amount of TB blood over 7 or 8 generation that make the horse. It is about which TB was used, when, why and how. The result is the modern warmblood. No one ever denied the impact the TB had over the years, but not everyone agrees, even amongst the best breeders in US, Europe or anywhere, about its necessity as of today. The credit is not only on the TB, it is about the genius of the breeders who knew how to use it in their WB breeding program.[/QUOTE]

Yes he is a modern warmblood, but genetically he is a modern warmblood who happens to be 72% TB. You can call him whatever you like, but it won’t change his genetic make-up.

[Cumano]

Still, genetically speaking, he’s more TB than anything else.

It is not mathematics, it is genetic. It is not the % of a specific genes that he has, it is merely a ratio of how often TB individuals appears in his pedigree over 8 or 9 generations. It means nothing. You cross for specific traits, it is not like downloading a plug in.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8075936]

Of course you made the ignore club. You posted a bunch of inaccurate history about Traks and then called me a troll when I corrected you. :lol: Your ideas about the origins of the TB breed were pretty hilariously inaccurate too. If you guys are going to try to pass yourselves as experts, at least get your facts straight.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think using the “ignore function” means what you think it means.

And your use of facts are up their with your definition of ignore.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8076194]
It is not mathematics, it is genetic. It is not the % of a specific genes that he has, it is merely a ratio of how often TB individuals appears in his pedigree over 8 or 9 generations. It means nothing. You cross for specific traits, it is not like downloading a plug in.[/QUOTE]

So some breeders on COTH go by their own made up rules of genetics. Good to know.

[Cumano]

What rule? You are the one putting numbers on the “Thoroughbrededness” of a horse? By your “rule” you obtain a grey horse by breeding a Black to a White? The 16h1 is either obtained by crossing a 16h with a 16h2 or two 16h1 together?

It is hard to argue with someone whos only argument is “How ignorent are you”.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8076326]
What rule? You are the one putting numbers on the “Thoroughbrededness” of a horse? By your “rule” you obtain a grey horse by breeding a Black to a White? The 16h1 is either obtained by crossing a 16h with a 16h2 or two 16h1 together?

It is hard to argue with someone whos only argument is “How ignorent are you”.[/QUOTE]

1. Your post doesn’t really mean anything. Btw I didn’t calculate the percentage of TB blood in that horse, it’s right there in his pedigree. Horse telex calculates the percentage. 2) I’ve put together many good points, you just won’t accept their truth or value. Your loss. 3) Good-bye.