New decision in Holstein

[Elles]

http://www.stalhendrix.nl/nl/hengsten/vittorio
Minstens zo interessant is de moederlijn, want Vittorio is gefokt uit de halfbloedmerrie Ma Belle en dat maakt zijn pedigree nog exclusiever. Zij stamt af van de Engels volbloed Martel xx, die internationaal sprong onder Emile Hendrix en enige jaren beschikbaar was voor de Nederlandse fokkerij.

Translation:
Equally interesting is the mother line because Vittorio is bred out of the half blood mare Ma Belle and that makes his pedigree even more exclusive. She is descended from the English Thoroughbred Martel xx, who was an international jumper for some years under Emile Hendrix and was available for Dutch breeding.

http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/3639
http://www.hippomundo.com/competitions/index/40670

[tuckawayfarm]

[QUOTE=Elles;8076390]
http://www.stalhendrix.nl/nl/hengsten/vittorio
Minstens zo interessant is de moederlijn, want Vittorio is gefokt uit de halfbloedmerrie Ma Belle en dat maakt zijn pedigree nog exclusiever. Zij stamt af van de Engels volbloed Martel xx, die internationaal sprong onder Emile Hendrix en enige jaren beschikbaar was voor de Nederlandse fokkerij.

Translation:
Equally interesting is the mother line because Vittorio is bred out of the half blood mare Ma Belle and that makes his pedigree even more exclusive. She is descended from the English Thoroughbred Martel xx, who was an international jumper for some years under Emile Hendrix and was available for Dutch breeding.

http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/3639
http://www.hippomundo.com/competitions/index/40670[/QUOTE]

Another good example of using a TB sire to produce a broodmare who in turn produces a successful F2.

This mare was also produced in the '90s, so really doesn’t aid in the discussion of whether or not we need TBs to produce modern broodmares today. Personally, I would like to see some more TB options, but I don’t blame the breeders for wanting to produce what sells.

[vineyridge]

I still would like to see a series that uses old Olympic courses, just to see if they would be considered too easy today. The jump cups today are flatter, the poles are lighter, and the fences may be lower.

Cumano says the reason that courses today are as they are is because the old would be too easy. How can we know that without evidence?

[tuckawayfarm]

I disagree that the old huge courses are easier. They are just different. The course designer has to have some way to allow the best horses to shine. Easiest way to do that is by making the course very big or very technical. A technical course can be set in a much smaller ring. With so many shows utilizing indoor arenas, technical makes sense. The biggest venues will probably always be a combination of the two.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8075963]
His grand get include the following 1.6m jumpers: Shutterfly, HH Let’s Fly, Remedi D, and Coriba, along with many other jumpers.[/QUOTE]

Famm’s name will long out-live the name of her sire.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8076444]
Another good example of using a TB sire to produce a broodmare who in turn produces a successful F2.

This mare was also produced in the '90s, so really doesn’t aid in the discussion of whether or not we need TBs to produce modern broodmares today. Personally, I would like to see some more TB options, but I don’t blame the breeders for wanting to produce what sells.[/QUOTE]

Many examples of full TBs and F1s have been provided too.

The 90s was less than a generation ago. Most of the horses competing today were born in the late 1990s/early 2000s.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8076514]
Famm’s name will long out-live the name of her sire.[/QUOTE]

I doubt it, since a horse is typically described by sire and dam sire. Plus, he was still her sire, and she wasn’t his only good offspring.

[NoDQhere]

I think GAP is confusing 72% with almost 3/4. A horse that is “almost” 3/4 TB is a very different animal than a modern WB that is 72% blood. Since the closest TB in the pedigree is the dam sire, it once again proves what several posters are saying.

We have a young stallion who’s dam’s dam was sired by Prince Rouge xx who, I learned from COTH folk, was an important broodmare sire as are the majority of TB sires used in WB breeding. Of course most weren’t like today’s TBs either but it seems if you mention that you are anti TB. I am not, but I also know just any TB is not the same as the right TB, and they are getting harder and harder to find.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8076484]
I disagree that the old huge courses are easier. They are just different. The course designer has to have some way to allow the best horses to shine. Easiest way to do that is by making the course very big or very technical. A technical course can be set in a much smaller ring. With so many shows utilizing indoor arenas, technical makes sense. The biggest venues will probably always be a combination of the two.[/QUOTE]

Agree. The courses started getting more technical after the 60s. The courses in the 80s weren’t that different from what is built now. There is more emphasis on jumping from a tight spot now.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8076526]
I think GAP is confusing 72% with almost 3/4. A horse that is “almost” 3/4 TB is a very different animal than a modern WB that is 72% blood. Since the closest TB in the pedigree is the dam sire, it once again proves what several posters are saying.

We have a young stallion who’s dam’s dam was sired by Prince Rouge xx who, I learned from COTH folk, was an important broodmare sire as are the majority of TB sires used in WB breeding. Of course most weren’t like today’s TBs either but it seems if you mention that you are anti TB. I am not, but I also know just any TB is not the same as the right TB, and they are getting harder and harder to find.[/QUOTE]

No, I am not confused. This thread is hilarious. So much angst and “explanation” for a percentage of blood in a pedigree.

The part in bold isn’t actually true. One comes off as anti-TB when they discount any examples of TBs competing and breeding or that Verband directors are looking for TB horses. Another factor is that horses that are sprinters can still be valuable as sport horses.

OTOH, if you like TBs you’re labelled a “TB Jihadist”. Very mature.

[tuckawayfarm]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8076516]
Many examples of full TBs and F1s have been provided too.

The 90s was less than a generation ago. Most of the horses competing today were born in the late 1990s/early 2000s.[/QUOTE]

We all agree there have been some full TBs and F1s competing at the top, but the vast majority of the examples given in this thread have been F2s. Breeding is a huge gamble at best, I can’t imagine a knowledgeable breeder deliberately reducing their odds for success by breeding for the exception.

I love TB blood and have used it, but I did so knowing I was probably going to need a second generation to get what I wanted.

Luckily breeding generationally in equines isn’t nearly as time consuming as you think. I have been breeding for a bit more than a decade and am working with the granddaughters of my foundation mares. I would not consider mares from the '90s to be less than a generation away from today.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8076567]
We all agree there have been some full TBs and F1s competing at the top, but the vast majority of the examples given in this thread have been F2s. Breeding is a huge gamble at best, I can’t imagine a knowledgeable breeder deliberately reducing their odds for success by breeding for the exception.

I love TB blood and have used it, but I did so knowing I was probably going to need a second generation to get what I wanted.

Luckily breeding generationally in equines isn’t nearly as time consuming as you think. I have been breeding for a bit more than a decade and am working with the granddaughters of my foundation mares. I would not consider mares from the '90s to be less than a generation away from today.[/QUOTE]

I would. My mare was born in the 80s and her son is in his teens. The 90s really wasn’t that long ago, considering a horse is in its teens when competing at peak ability in Grand Prix competitions.

I would think a breeder would breed for F2 if they got a good horse in F1 and wanted to further their breeding program. Getting a 1.6m horse in F1 from a mare imported from a Europe is quite a long shot anyway, since Europeans are not going to sell their best producers if they can help it.

Anyway, I’m not trying to convince anyone to use TBs and that has not been my purpose in posting here. People should breed what they want to breed. I do love TBs though and based on personal experience, both with TBs and warmbloods, think that they could offer a lot to sport horse breeding in the US.

[NoDQhere]

There aren’t many horses with a full TB sire or dam and a 1/2 TB sire or dam, in other words 75% TB that are successful GP jumpers or GP Dressage horses. There aren’t even all that many Eventers, (yes I am familiar with the Butts horses) bred that way.

Not a single person on this thread has said WBs haven’t benefited greatly from the addition of the right TB blood. But adding up the percentage of blood from many generations of a pedigree doesn’t make a horse more TB than anything else.

And the reality is that the TBs that the Europeans have used are more the “right” type of TBs that what most people in the US are likely to find or have access to.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8076720]
There aren’t many horses with a full TB sire or dam and a 1/2 TB sire or dam, in other words 75% TB that are successful GP jumpers or GP Dressage horses. There aren’t even all that many Eventers, (yes I am familiar with the Butts horses) bred that way.

Not a single person on this thread has said WBs haven’t benefited greatly from the addition of the right TB blood. But adding up the percentage of blood from many generations of a pedigree doesn’t make a horse more TB than anything else.

And the reality is that the TBs that the Europeans have used are more the “right” type of TBs that what most people in the US are likely to find or have access to.[/QUOTE]

The reality is that the majority of best TB jumpers that competed were American TBs, and no, not all of the right type are gone. I have seen a wide range in physical types among TBs and don’t believe all of the desirable traits for sport could be gone in 15 years.

Authentic has a TB in the 2nd generation and so does Shutterfly. To say that a horse that has 72% blood isn’t more blood than anything else is kind of ridiculous. Only on COTH would someone try to say that 72% is something it’s not. LOL If you’re speaking of expression of traits that is something else; not all horses with equal amounts of blood are created equal. Still, a horse with a high percentage of TB is likely to have more blood traits than a horse with a low percentage. That’s common sense.

As far as event horses go, I just looked at the first four top ranked eventers as of the end of Sept, 2014. All have TB sires. Classic Moët, ranked 4th, is 3/4 TB. Still, eventers are overall different horses with less blood type (less hot, more rideability, better suited to dressage) than the horses of the long format era, and the courses have been designed to fit those horses. To say that there aren’t that many full TB or 1/2 TB horses competing in GP dressage and show jumping is kind of stating the obvious, since there aren’t many TBs standing at stud for those sports and Europeans don’t use or have many TBs. It isn’t that those horses couldn’t be capable if they were selected and bred the same way horses are bred and promoted in Europe.

[tuckawayfarm]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8076576]
I would. My mare was born in the 80s and her son is in his teens. The 90s really wasn’t that long ago, considering a horse is in its teens when competing at peak ability in Grand Prix competitions.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I misunderstood. I was thinking in terms of breeding stock, not competition horses. While many show horses are peaking at that age, many broodmares are winding down. My girls from the '90s are enjoying their retirement. The stallions that worked best for them are quite different from what their much more modern granddaughters need.

I would think a breeder would breed for F2 if they got a good horse in F1 and wanted to further their breeding program. Getting a 1.6m horse in F1 from a mare imported from a Europe is quite a long shot anyway, since Europeans are not going to sell their best producers if they can help it.

Sometimes it pays to think a little further ahead.

Getting a 1.6m horse at all is a very big longshot :lol:

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8076794]
Sorry, I misunderstood. I was thinking in terms of breeding stock, not competition horses. While many show horses are peaking at that age, many broodmares are winding down. My girls from the '90s are enjoying their retirement. The stallions that worked best for them are quite different from what their much more modern granddaughters need.

Sometimes it pays to think a little further ahead.

Getting a 1.6m horse at all is a very big longshot :lol:[/QUOTE]

It’s not that unusual for mares to keep having foals through their teens. That’s what I was thinking of. For example, when my mare was born her dam was 18, and iirc her dam had her last at 23. We also had another TB mare whose dam was 19 when that mare was born. Or if a mare has a competitive career first she may finish later than a mare that went straight into the breeding shed.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8076542]
No, I am not confused. This thread is hilarious. So much angst and “explanation” for a percentage of blood in a pedigree.

The part in bold isn’t actually true. One comes off as anti-TB when they discount any examples of TBs competing and breeding or that Verband directors are looking for TB horses. Another factor is that horses that are sprinters can still be valuable as sport horses.

OTOH, if you like TBs you’re labelled a “TB Jihadist”. Very mature.[/QUOTE]

You believe everything you read without knowing anything about the depth of what you’ve read.

Verband Directors are in fact looking for TB Stallions…problem is…the breeders are not and don’t care. They will be used very little even if the Verband directors find a good one.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8076541]
Agree. The courses started getting more technical after the 60s. The courses in the 80s weren’t that different from what is built now. There is more emphasis on jumping from a tight spot now.[/QUOTE]

What the H are you talking about ? When is the last time you walked a showjumping course ? I would submit NEVER !

“There is more emphasis on jumping from a tight spot now” ? Really GAP ? Did you watch the last two Million Dollar classes in Thermal and Ocala ? They were anything but tight…they were big gallop and flowing , something your beloved TB should excel at but not one in sight.

When are you going to realize that most TB’s are not bred for , nor are conformed for , the Olympic disciplines ?

You are missing a Golden opportunity to learn from folks here but as usual , your lips can’t quit moving long enough to learn anything.

[Elles]

Why do people on this German forum discuss TB’s if TB’s do not interest breeders and riders at all?
http://www.horse-gate-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?52-Mut-zum-Blut-Edle-Tropfen
Everything on those pages is about bloodhorses. And most of it about bloodhorses in sport, also jumping and dressage.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8076849]
What the H are you talking about ? When is the last time you walked a showjumping course ? I would submit NEVER !

“There is more emphasis on jumping from a tight spot now” ? Really GAP ? Did you watch the last two Million Dollar classes in Thermal and Ocala ? They were anything but tight…they were big gallop and flowing , something your beloved TB should excel at but not one in sight.

When are you going to realize that most TB’s are not bred for , nor are conformed for , the Olympic disciplines ?

You are missing a Golden opportunity to learn from folks here but as usual , your lips can’t quit moving long enough to learn anything.[/QUOTE]

When’s the last time you walked a show jumping course bayhawk? I’ve probably watched more courses being ridden than you have. And unlike you, I have experience with TBs and have actually ridden them. You don’t have to be a GP jumper rider to figure out that a horse is talented, not if you are riding them over all sorts of jumps. If you watched eventing trainers and courses being ridden you’d know that.

Learn from you and some of the posters here? If I did that I’d think that TBs came from 3 sires and a small band of Arabian mares only. Or that Trakehners never pulled plows, despite photographic evidence to the contrary and the fact that pulling a plow was part of the written standard in testing. :lol: Or that Baloubet du Rouet shouldn’t be used for breeding due to his strange conformation and was a flop as a sire.

The outlook of many of the posters here centers around selling the horses they breed. Often not very interesting or educational. One can learn a lot more by looking at the horses (their pedigrees) of the top competitive/ breeding horses.

You seem to think your outlook is THE TRUTH. It is not.

Oh, and btw, it’d be nice if you didn’t concoct more lies about me. If you do I will report you.