New decision in Holstein

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8077486]
Actually, it’s all true…if someone cares they can look up the thread. It was regarding linebreeding IIRC and you were holding forth with your expert opinion on how ill-advised it was, and how terrible the outcome would be.

When I presented many, many examples of how it can (and is) used successfully as a breeding tool, you proceeded to expound on how uninformed and ignorant I must be to think such a thing…how could ANYONE possibly disagree with you?

You seemed so firm in your opinion, that I began to push for info on why you felt so confident. Turns out you took some course in biology/genetics in college. But you are not/were not a breeder, you have never ridden competitively at any significant level, nor have you trained a horse to compete at a significant level, nor have you worked or been involved professionally in the horse world.

When I pointed this out in the other thread, you proceeded to trash my stock, both of whom have been evaluated by those with far more credentials than you to be quite nice in quality. Olympic nice? Probably not. But pretty darn nice.

If any of this is untrue, please correct me. It is the internet, so I suppose you could lie, but honor system.

And yes, this IS a public board and everyone DOES have the right to express an opinion. Will not argue about that.

But for someone with no actual, valid experience to back up those opinions, they don’t carry alot of weight. Yet you are incredibly arrogant in your replies and responses to those who DO have some experience & knowledge.

Some of your responses are just flat out rude and belittling.

Like the one on this thread to Jackie Cochren, Bent Hickory and Cumano . I will not defend Bayhawk, as he has shown himself to be quite capable in that regard. ;):eek:

To my mind, this is kind of like some armchair QB telling Tom Brady how he should play the game.

I have my share of bad qualities, but dishonesty is not one of them. So by all means look up that old thread – be my guest. I will not say I can relate the posts word by word, but the gist is there.[/QUOTE]

Apparently you are dishonest, since much of what you have posted is not true. What I post here is based on “actual, valid experience”. I’ve already posted about my experiences and am not going to do it again just so you can misrepresent it. If you know me at all you’d know the horse I bred is an orphan, and I have answered questions about orphans here many times.

I have a bachelor of science degree in biology and took several genetics classes and worked for several years in research. I’ve posted about that before too, but no doubt someone on COTH will soon inform me that I don’t actually have a biology degree. :lol: You were advocating an appalling degree of inbreeding and I think used Nearco’s breeder in your arguments. This in spite of the fact that inbreeding is a model for creating lines rife with genetic defects and the fact that Nearco’s breeder backed off from using inbreeding later in his career (wonder why?). Nearco himself is not the product of close inbreeding. If you didn’t talk about Nearco’s breeder oh well. I’m not going to go look up some argument with you. An animal breeder is NOT necessarily someone I would look to for advice about inbreeding at all, considering what has gone on with dog breeding for example, to the detriment of many dog breeds.

From what I can tell you’ve bred a few horses and now think you are an expert. No, I am not a breeder, but one doesn’t have to be a breeder to know about horses, genetics, and breed history. In fact I’ve seen a lack of knowledge on those 3 subjects from some breeders on here. It’s kind of hilarious how those same breeders expect potential customers to bow down before them.

Over and out. There’s no point in reading your diatribes anymore.

Maybe the question should be how do you go about “making” a thoroughbred as a sport horse sire? I suspect the same way you make a WB sport horse sire.

Likely pedigree or looks or free jump alone is not going to do it. You either have to get him in the ring and show he can compete at 1.6 m to get good mares for him or buy a herd of top jumper lined mares and cross your fingers and pray the foals get to the big ring or both. It will costs lots of money and take at least 10-15 years of your life.

That’s true of any stallion in the US, TB or warmblood.

A question from I guess idle curiosity since I never plan to breed horses again.

With the breed approved WB sires who have competed successfully over 1.6 meters in competition, what percentage of their get are also capable of competing successfully over 1.6 meters in competition? I want the PERCENTAGE of proven competition get, I know many of these stallions have sired successful horses by this criteria.

Believe me I know that every mating that should work out rarely does work out, after all even Man o’War’s sons and daughters lost horseraces even though he sired that great rarity, a Triple Crown winner (War Admiral) AND a winner of the English Grand National steeplechase (Battleship)! Too bad Man o’War is long dead, I suspect he might have been an excellent WB outcross. However in the long run Man o’War was most respected as a brood mare sire, therefore even he would probably have exactly the same F1 problem of modern TBs.

My advice, research TB MARE lines, and find one that has some promising characteristics (higher trot, slightly higher tail carriage when performing at their maximum, decent conformation), research HER SONS that have not been gelded, and pick the one that looks somewhat promising. Be prepared to sacrifice pretty heads and general “smoothness” of conformation, and, of course, he probably won’t jump like you like. Don’t waste your time watching him jump freestyle, you need to see jumping under saddle, just enough to know that he will jump. If you can’t see him jump under saddle, select from a GOOD long, supple flat walk and a good extended gallop that is high in the front. For the slower gallop you want to see one that you could train as a polo pony. This type of TB male still gets born, but too many of them are gelded as the flashy sprinters get the glory and fail to win the Belmont Stakes. I mourn the loss of the US Remount stallion depots, they had suitable TB stallions for your purposes but they disappeared long ago.

If every 1.60 meter WB stallion cannot produce a 1.60 jumper out of every mating with a suitable WB mare, well, that is just horse breeding. I don’t really see why you all are so unhappy with TB parents, you are probably ignoring the suitable TBs or putting them on to mares that do not complement their good points.

I’m sorry, even a paragon of TB stallions will need to be mated with your BEST mare. Breeding a TB to WB mare that is not the top of the line is a wasted breeding year. Even when you find a suitable TB sire that does not entirely “kill” the particular WB jump, he will not produce 100% 1.60 meter jumpers. Yes, the WB stallions you use now will probably have a higher percentage of 1.60 meter get, but will the WB stallion deliver the hybred vigor you need? I am picking up from this discussion that not all matings between 1.60 meter WB horses produce 1.60 meter WB get either, and this is causing WB breeders problems. It isn’t just TB stallions that fail to deliver 100% 1.60 meter jumpers.

I’ll shut up now.

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8077308]
I can’t believe anyone would say today’s TB are not suited to big fences and wide open courses. At the least they must never have seen or read about the Maryland Hunt Cup. Those fences are nearly 1.5m and solid.

God I hate watching that race though, so much I’ve only watched it a few times. Horrible falls from horses jumping at so much speed and getting to the jumps at an awkward spot from just galloping flat-out between jumps. There doesn’t seem to be a set-up for the jumps on the part of the riders. I can’t understand why anyone would want to ride in that race or enter their horse.[/QUOTE]

Actually…you did. You said todays courses were too technical with their “tight spots” and you eluded that this would hamper your beloved TB’s.

I then proceeded to point out that TB’s were not even present in the last two Million dollar 1.60 meter classes in Thermal and Ocala , where the courses were big and flowing , open gallops , very inviting and not technical.

Which is it GAP ? The spots are too tight or the courses are too inviting ? You can’t have both as an excuse of why the Tb’s are not present in either.

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8077826]
A question from I guess idle curiosity since I never plan to breed horses again.

With the breed approved WB sires who have competed successfully over 1.6 meters in competition, what percentage of their get are also capable of competing successfully over 1.6 meters in competition? I want the PERCENTAGE of proven competition get, I know many of these stallions have sired successful horses by this criteria.

Believe me I know that every mating that should work out rarely does work out, after all even Man o’War’s sons and daughters lost horseraces even though he sired that great rarity, a Triple Crown winner (War Admiral) AND a winner of the English Grand National steeplechase (Battleship)! Too bad Man o’War is long dead, I suspect he might have been an excellent WB outcross. However in the long run Man o’War was most respected as a brood mare sire, therefore even he would probably have exactly the same F1 problem of modern TBs.

My advice, research TB MARE lines, and find one that has some promising characteristics (higher trot, slightly higher tail carriage when performing at their maximum, decent conformation), research HER SONS that have not been gelded, and pick the one that looks somewhat promising. Be prepared to sacrifice pretty heads and general “smoothness” of conformation, and, of course, he probably won’t jump like you like. Don’t waste your time watching him jump freestyle, you need to see jumping under saddle, just enough to know that he will jump. If you can’t see him jump under saddle, select from a GOOD long, supple flat walk and a good extended gallop that is high in the front. For the slower gallop you want to see one that you could train as a polo pony. This type of TB male still gets born, but too many of them are gelded as the flashy sprinters get the glory and fail to win the Belmont Stakes. I mourn the loss of the US Remount stallion depots, they had suitable TB stallions for your purposes but they disappeared long ago.

If every 1.60 meter WB stallion cannot produce a 1.60 jumper out of every mating with a suitable WB mare, well, that is just horse breeding. I don’t really see why you all are so unhappy with TB parents, you are probably ignoring the suitable TBs or putting them on to mares that do not complement their good points.

I’m sorry, even a paragon of TB stallions will need to be mated with your BEST mare. Breeding a TB to WB mare that is not the top of the line is a wasted breeding year. Even when you find a suitable TB sire that does not entirely “kill” the particular WB jump, he will not produce 100% 1.60 meter jumpers. Yes, the WB stallions you use now will probably have a higher percentage of 1.60 meter get, but will the WB stallion deliver the hybred vigor you need? I am picking up from this discussion that not all matings between 1.60 meter WB horses produce 1.60 meter WB get either, and this is causing WB breeders problems. It isn’t just TB stallions that fail to deliver 100% 1.60 meter jumpers.

I’ll shut up now.[/QUOTE]

I have read your post several times and I just don’t understand your point. I don’t understand who you are referring to when you write “you”.

Also,why are you so concerned with “tail carriage?”

I read an article a few years ago on breeding statistics for jumpers. At the time Holstein was producing the highest percentage of 1.60 horses out of foals bred and it was slightly over 2%. Most of the other European registries were 1-1.5%.

This is using some of the best stock in the world and a very focused breeding culture. They also have the best system for identifying future stars and getting them to top trainers and riders. 2%. And yet American breeders are constantly advertising their in-uteros as GP prospects. :rolleyes:

While those stats may not seem very impressive, by breeding for the top, their average foals are probably very nice 1.2m prospects with many falling in the 1.35-1.45 range. The 1.6m horse is a very special and rare animal. That’s why they are worth 7 figures.

With the odds of producing a truly top prospect being so miniscule, it becomes important to stack whatever the breeder can in their favor. I think that is why the Verband is fighting an uphill battle trying to encourage breeding to TB sires.

Bayhawk can probably provide current stats. I do think the odds of producing a 1.6m horse improve if you are using proven 1.6m horses for breeding. Still a longshot and no guarantees.

I think what I gleened JC was saying is that it will take a special xx stallion with special attributes and even at that he would have to breed the right mares and even that–if only 10-15 percent of foals of great stallions end up in the big ring --he will have to breed enough superior mares statistically to get that great jumper child if he is capable of throwing one. JC is right- we really do not have statistics on the production rate of a jumper stallions. We only have evidence that certain stallions/mares are capable of throwing top jumpers.

I just can’t tolerate being treated as an ignorant by someone who, clearly does not realize the scope of what he/she doesn’t know. I can argue for a very long time with someone who disagree with me. But arguing with someone convinced having the truth is pintless. I will have to quote people as everything I will say will be turned into ridicule.

Jan Greeve, one of the biggest TB advocate of TB in sport horse breeding saids:

And of course, when you breed to the Thoroughbreds, the main goal is to produce mares. You don’t use a Thoroughbred to produce good sport horses mainly it is to produce good half blood mares.

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2012/10/breeding-philosophy-with-jan-greve/

Paul Schoeckmoehl said:

“We need Thoroughbred blood, but in general you have to breed another generation because the direct Thoroughbreds make very few jumpers. We have not had very good success with them. The very last really top one was Furioso in France. Thoroughbreds are not bred for jumping, they are bred for racing and they are proof of what we are trying to do with our association. They are bred as specialists for running races and they are faster than any other breed because they are bred for that. It is the same when we try to breed jumpers. We can only breed jumpers when we use stallions and mares that are bred for jumping for five, six, seven generations. We always look for some blood – like Baloubet has a Starter mother – we always try to get blood into the horses, but very few direct Thoroughbred progeny were successful.”

http://www.horsejumpbrazil.com/site/biblioteca/artigos/artigo10.pdf

Arnaud Évain also repeated numerous times that the TB has been very important in the past but is no longer as crucial.

Tom Reed, in a recent article a critical shortage of blood who was shared here is also of the opinion, with regards to SJ, that:

I am not convinced that showjumping and dressage breeding require infusions of TB blood. In the article “A Special Role No More: TBs in Sport Horse Breeding” (Horse International Vol 7 2008, and available to be read at http://www.morningside-stud.com/gpage19.html) I argued that there is no
longer a special place for TBs in showjumping and dressage breeding, and nothing in the seven years since the article was published leads me to change my mind. If anything, recent trends in breeding confirm my hypothesis. Studbook officials and breeders are more and more selecting on traits for
showjumping and dressage breeding programs that heretofore were associated with the characteristics sought from a TB sire but are now increasing found in ultra-modern warmblood stallions: reactivity, quick reflexes, elegance, and a long front leg, for example. There is no compelling reason to use a TB sire in showjumping and dressage breeding if the desired “blood traits” can be accessed through ultra-modern warmblood stallions.

Just to make GAP realize how many people are as ignorant as some of us here are. It is a question of respect. I can understand people not agreeing whith my opinions, but turning to ridicule those opinions, wich are generaly shared by important actors in modern breeding is insulting to me, but I think discredit yourself. We all said time and time again that TB have been good for warmblood breeding. I believe that TB kills the blood, so does many other, including Jan Greeve. You do not breed with TB for the jump. It may be a wise choice to kill the jump over a generation to bring blood and the attributes that blood brings to the table.

[QUOTE=skydy;8077871]
I have read your post several times and I just don’t understand your point. I don’t understand who you are referring to when you write “you”.

Also,why are you so concerned with “tail carriage?”[/QUOTE]

I don’t understand the point about tail carriage either, since like I said the top TB jumpers just had regular tail carriage from all the ones I’ve seen. Nor do I understand the point about Man o’War having trouble with producing suitable F1 crosses since he was known as an excellent brood mare sire.

I agree with this though:

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8077826]If every 1.60 meter WB stallion cannot produce a 1.60 jumper out of every mating with a suitable WB mare, well, that is just horse breeding. I don’t really see why you all are so unhappy with TB parents, you are probably ignoring the suitable TBs or putting them on to mares that do not complement their good points.

I’m sorry, even a paragon of TB stallions will need to be mated with your BEST mare. Breeding a TB to WB mare that is not the top of the line is a wasted breeding year. Even when you find a suitable TB sire that does not entirely “kill” the particular WB jump, he will not produce 100% 1.60 meter jumpers. Yes, the WB stallions you use now will probably have a higher percentage of 1.60 meter get, but will the WB stallion deliver the hybred vigor you need? I am picking up from this discussion that not all matings between 1.60 meter WB horses produce 1.60 meter WB get either, and this is causing WB breeders problems. It isn’t just TB stallions that fail to deliver 100% 1.60 meter jumpers.[/QUOTE]

The gene pool of top jumpers is actually rather small. I’ve seen people mourn the loss of the G line in Hanoverians but it isn’t really gone, it’s just been crossed into bloodlines from other registries. Probably had to be, since they aren’t that many top jumpers among Hanoverians, especially with all of the emphasis on dressage in recent decades.

It would be interesting to know the actual statistics of a stallion’s success, although just numbers won’t tell you the whole story. What were the quality of the mares, were they a good complement to him? etc

Nor do I understand the point about Man o’War having trouble with producing suitable F1 crosses since he was known as an excellent brood mare sire.

Producing good broodmares means that his influence is best felt as F2.

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8077942]
I don’t understand the point about tail carriage either, since like I said the top TB jumpers just had regular tail carriage from all the ones I’ve seen. Nor do I understand the point about Man o’War having trouble with producing suitable F1 crosses since he was known as an excellent brood mare sire.

I agree with this though:

The gene pool of top jumpers is actually rather small. I’ve seen people mourn the loss of the G line in Hanoverians but it isn’t really gone, it’s just been crossed into bloodlines from other registries. Probably had to be, since they aren’t that many top jumpers among Hanoverians, especially with all of the emphasis on dressage in recent decades.

It would be interesting to know the actual statistics of a stallion’s success, although just numbers won’t tell you the whole story. What were the quality of the mares, were they a good complement to him? etc[/QUOTE]

The part of Jackie C’s post that you agree with, makes no sense in this discussion. It is off the wall to me. So, I must say I still don’t understand
any of it. It seems irrelevant.

I do feel that cumano has a point. :yes:

[QUOTE=Cumano;8077917]
I just can’t tolerate being treated as an ignorant by someone who, clearly does not realize the scope of what he/she doesn’t know. I can argue for a very long time with someone who disagree with me. But arguing with someone convinced having the truth is pintless. I will have to quote people as everything I will say will be turned into ridicule.

Jan Greeve, one of the biggest TB advocate of TB in sport horse breeding saids:

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2012/10/breeding-philosophy-with-jan-greve/

Paul Schoeckmoehl said:

http://www.horsejumpbrazil.com/site/biblioteca/artigos/artigo10.pdf

Arnaud Évain also repeated numerous times that the TB has been very important in the past but is no longer as crucial.

Tom Reed, in a recent article a critical shortage of blood who was shared here is also of the opinion, with regards to SJ, that:

Just to make GAP realize how many people are as ignorant as some of us here are. It is a question of respect. I can understand people not agreeing whith my opinions, but turning to ridicule those opinions, wich are generaly shared by important actors in modern breeding is insulting to me, but I think discredit yourself. We all said time and time again that TB have been good for warmblood breeding. I believe that TB kills the blood, so does many other, including Jan Greeve. You do not breed with TB for the jump. It may be a wise choice to kill the jump over a generation to bring blood and the attributes that blood brings to the table.[/QUOTE]

Cumano’s post seems quite reasonable. We are discussing a topic. Not having a boxing match.

I’m amazed at posts which quote famous people as saying thoroughbreds can’t jump. I’m amazed at people who say the last good jumping TB sire was Furioso. I’m amazed at how quickly the successes in the past over courses that were different have been forgotten. If you want to say that TBs can’t jump today’s courses, you might be right. But you cannot say that TBs don’t jump. Tell that to riders who jump the Maryland Hunt course or the Velka or the course at Aintree on TBs.

Furioso was born in 1939. To my recollection, there were more than a few TB Olympic medallists, even champions, after 1939. But according to Shockemoehle, they couldn’t jump. It’s sort of funny, since Paul Schockemoehle was on the German team at Los Angeles in 1984 and was beaten by the US race bred TB, Touch of Class. He hasn’t been on a German Olympic Team since.

[QUOTE=skydy;8078072]
Cumano’s post seems quite reasonable. We are discussing a topic. Not having a boxing match.[/QUOTE]

I think Cumano’s post is whiney and irrelevant to the subject of the thread, and is ONCE AGAIN missing the points those of us who support using TBs. I’m not ignorant Cumano. I don’t agree with Tom Reed.

This is from Jan Greve’s article:

And does the search go on for another good Thoroughbred stallion?
“Every day I am looking, every day. I have a horse called Painter’s Row by Royal Academy, he’ll breed some nice showjumpers. He was in Oldenburg for two years, then Holstein, then Italy and now we presented him again in Holland. We found nine of his progeny in Holland and free jumped them, amazing good jumpers – I think they misused him at first, thinking he should be a dressage stallion… nothing to do with dressage. I think from Holstein should come a few nice horses by him, they are three years old now. He breeds horses with very good reactions, very good technique. Then these idiots here rejected him because of their semen thing, say the semen is not good enough – in the lab. It’s so crazy so now he is in Denmark and they love him. We use him with frozen semen and the semen works very well. It’s just an idiot system they have here in Holland with the semen, they think they can predict in the lab, but there are so many factors in the fertility scene, that you cannot know, or we cannot find out, or it costs too much money to find it out. So we toss all these good horses away, a waste of good stallions.”

You want respect, Cumano, whilst you name call? Forget it. I don’t care if you think you’re right.

The part of JC’s post that I agreed with is very pertinent to the conversation. The point of the thread is the Holsteiner Verband opening up its books to more TB stallions.

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8078116]
I think Cumano’s post is whiney and irrelevant to the subject of the thread, and is ONCE AGAIN missing the points those of us who support using TBs. I’m not ignorant Cumano. I don’t agree with Tom Reed.

The part of JC’s post that I agreed with is very pertinent to the conversation. The point of the thread is the Holsteiner Verband opening up its books to more TB stallions.[/QUOTE]

That was the topic, yes.
However, there seems to be much hesitation (to say the least) by the BREEDERS of Holsteiners in using xx stallions at this time, no matter what the Verband allows.
I find it an interesting subject, however I think we’ve lost the discussion to a juvenile “WB vs TB” debate and personal pi$$ng match which diminishes the conversation and has made it impossible for those of us who are interested in the opinions of breeders (and enthusiasts), to enjoy a civilized and intelligent discussion.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8078091]
I’m amazed at posts which quote famous people as saying thoroughbreds can’t jump. I’m amazed at people who say the last good jumping TB sire was Furioso. I’m amazed at how quickly the successes in the past over courses that were different have been forgotten. If you want to say that TBs can’t jump today’s courses, you might be right. But you cannot say that TBs don’t jump. Tell that to riders who jump the Maryland Hunt course or the Velka or the course at Aintree on TBs.

Furioso was born in 1939. To my recollection, there were more than a few TB Olympic medallists, even champions, after 1939.[/QUOTE]

They can’t for the most part Viney…get out from behind your computer and actually go to an inspection somewhere or a showjumping class somewhere and you will see.

Go to an approval and you will see the TB stallions are only required to free jump at a much smaller height as the normal stallions for approval.

Go to a showjumping competition and you will see they are completely outclassed at even 1.30meter . You hang your hat on a few exceptions over time. For the most part , they can’t jump at a high level because they are not bred or conformed for it.

When you do get out from behind your computer and actually go to an event somewhere , you will see that you are most certainly fighting a losing battle.

[QUOTE=skydy;8078218]
That was the topic, yes.
However, there seems to be much hesitation (to say the least) by the BREEDERS of Holsteiners in using xx stallions at this time, no matter what the Verband allows.
I find it an interesting subject, however I think we’ve lost the discussion to a juvenile “WB vs TB” debate and personal pi$$ng match which diminishes the conversation and has made it impossible for those of us who are interested in the opinions of breeders (and enthusiasts), to enjoy a civilized and intelligent discussion.[/QUOTE]

Not only in Holstein…Tb Stallions are very rarely being used anywhere.

There’s a post on the eventing forum about an eventing tb who free jumped 7’ from a trot, per the person who tested him in her chute. His owner, a 4* eventer, plans to keep him entire.

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8078245]
Not only in Holstein…Tb Stallions are very rarely being used anywhere.[/QUOTE]

I understand that, I really do… However, this thread is (or was) about the HOLSTEIN Verband and their recognition of xx stallions that have been approved by others.