New decision in Holstein

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8076514]
Famm’s name will long out-live the name of her sire.[/QUOTE]

Let me assuage your doubts. Serendipitously, I was in a seminar this morning with an official from one of the verbands. The topic was warmblood sire lines. Shutterfly was discussed. Famm was mentioned by name and identified as a important Hanoverian mare. Famm’s damsire was mentioned by name as was the her dam’s full brother Gluecksstern. Famm’s sire was ambiguously referred to as “a TB stallion” - his name unmentioned.

He will be forgotten - she will not.

Christ on a raft! :eek: Wars have been fought for less…

Passion is understandable. Animosity really is not.

Nothing wrong with a good debate! However we all (or perhaps only some of us) know the difference between a debate and a fistfight and are capable of engaging in one, without the other. :wink:

There was an article from an interview with Jan Greve in Dutch horse magazine “In de strengen” in which Mr. Greve said that more TB blood should be added to show jumping breeding.

http://library.wur.nl/WebQuery/groenekennis/1855612
https://www.facebook.com/101434649982937/photos/a.130198150439920.21948.101434649982937/672944602831936/?type=1&theater

For the record, I have never said TB weren’t good for the WB horse in the past, and I think no one did. I have never even said I wouldn’t use one today If I found one I thought could bring something to my program. People who know me even know I love horses with blood in them and I am convinced they are a necessity in todays sport and will remain for the futur. Although many people are of the opinion that with the state of todays warmblood, we have enough quality warmbloods to bring the blood without the use of the TB. I do not think TB are necessary, but I have never gone as far as saying that they are irrelevant. What I say from the very begining is that TB, in my opinion, have a purpouse and they must be used intelligently if used at all, with a generational objective. I am of the opinion that they are to be used to produce broodmares, or even stallions, but it is a mistake to use a full TB in the hope of producing a sport horse. I said, and I remain of that opinion, that good thoroughbreds are harder to find now as both SJ and racing have changed, and both TB and WB have evolved. If you took time to read completly the texts I posted a link to above, they are, to different level, directly in that line.

You may diagree, and that is fine with me. Viney ridge, I have always loved to read your posts on TB. To me, you are passionate about them, but also, you clearly know your sport, your breeding and the TB in general. Even if, most of the time I disagree with you, if you were to convince me, I would not hesitate to breed to a stallion you would find or produce (hoping for a broodmare of course, I could not confess completly I was on the wrong tack…) But GAP, your post make a good show to everyone reading it. I honnestly look forward to reading your response to mine. BUt if you could just begin your posts by “I think” or “I believe” instead of “ridiculous”, “laughable” or “I can’t believe how ignorant you are”, it would make it easier on all of us not to point out the non sens you repeat from parts of articles you read about topics you so clearly don’t understand.

http://www.martinmalone.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/crystal-cup-merano.jpg
http://www.martinmalone.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/20.Grand-Steeple-Chase-de-Paris.jpg
http://www.martinmalone.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/extreme-sud-620x331.jpg
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02695/pardubice_2695121b.jpg
http://img.ct24.cz/cache/616x411/article/30/2937/293677.jpg?1318176782
http://static.directmatin.fr/sites/default/files/styles/image_880_495/public/steeple.jpg?itok=iC7Hqei0
http://www.programme.tv/media/cache/relative_max_355x272/upload/epgs/2014/05/grand-steeple-chase-de-paris-2014_76312115_1.jpg
http://static2.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/4700-5/photos/1400438004-6000m-steeplechase-horse-race-in-paris_4780795.jpg

http://www.pegasus-farms.com/en/chevaux/mid-dancer--ch3.html
Linebreeding to all the usual suspects:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10572164&blood=10&quota=
St. Simon, Nearco, Nasrullah, Native Dancer, Galopin, Pharos, Swynford, Teddy, etc.

This horse also won the Grand National de Paris three times:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10566537&blood=10&quota=
and is also linebred to a lot of usual jumping suspects.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/kathy-kusner-and-three-thoroughbreds-challenged-tradition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcej-L63qY8
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10486168&blood=10&quota=&z=tPtF5-

Unless the great jumping mares line begin to revert to their earlier heavy selves there seems like there would be no need for xx blood now–but that is assuming nature and genetics does not take the WB back to its heavier version. I do not think anyone knows the answer to that–It seems the breed book wants to play it safe and have a savior xx in the wings if xx blood is needed in the future. A future great xx stallion will need to be great but also will need the right mares to be great, What always struck me about the wonderful F1 stallion Cor de la Bryere is that he needed a specific mare base to be great and they needed him. A perfect storm of genetics? I remember reading that bred to french mares he made rabbits (quick no power I assume that meant.) From the Holstein mares he made magic. From the great source of all knowledge Wiki:
“His influence in France was limited, mainly due to his jumping. Although he was quick to fold his front legs, he did not have great power. When crossed with Holsteiner mares, which provided this power, his offspring were very successful in the show ring. However, the French mares did not have this power, so they were usually a poor cross to Cor de la Bryere.”

Omare, great point, and I remember habving read same with regards to Cor de la Bryere. Thing is also, the great impact of the TB stallions would probably be seen late in their breeding carrers, when their daughters will be bred back and their own products will start showing results. Julio Mariner is the prime example of that. I do not think he was extremely popular as a stallion, but some breeder believed in his production. His daughters however became very in demand, not right away, but later, when the first products from Julio Mariners mares hit the show grounds.

One thing to take into account I think is also that the profile of the average breeder has change. More and more breeders are working with between 4 and 10 foals a year. They cannot necessarily risk to waste a year from their best broodmares by producing a half TB guelding hoping to get the filly they could probably work with.

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8078311]
Let me assuage your doubts. Serendipitously, I was in a seminar this morning with an official from one of the verbands. The topic was warmblood sire lines. Shutterfly was discussed. Famm was mentioned by name and identified as a important Hanoverian mare. Famm’s damsire was mentioned by name as was the her dam’s full brother Gluecksstern. Famm’s sire was ambiguously referred to as “a TB stallion” - his name unmentioned.

He will be forgotten - she will not.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, not impressed by your seminar. That flies in the face of how horses’ breeding is generally acknowledged in Europe. Anyway, without Forrest xx there would have been no Famm.

Shutterfly’s family is a good example of how TBs can be used to create top jumpers and dressage horses.

[QUOTE=skydy;8078218]
That was the topic, yes.
However, there seems to be much hesitation (to say the least) by the BREEDERS of Holsteiners in using xx stallions at this time, no matter what the Verband allows.
I find it an interesting subject, however I think we’ve lost the discussion to a juvenile “WB vs TB” debate and personal pi$$ng match which diminishes the conversation and has made it impossible for those of us who are interested in the opinions of breeders (and enthusiasts), to enjoy a civilized and intelligent discussion.[/QUOTE]

Actually, skydy, that is what I have been trying to do, but there are a few people who keep attacking me. Making up lies, no less.

I don’t know why the breeders here are equating themselves with the breeders in Europe with regards to using TBs. The breeders don’t have the super producing mares at this time (otherwise where are all the top American bred 1.6 jumpers and top dressage horses? I don’t see them on the international leader boards) and I still see quite a lot of old-fashioned warmblood horses here.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8078248]
There’s a post on the eventing forum about an eventing tb who free jumped 7’ from a trot, per the person who tested him in her chute. His owner, a 4* eventer, plans to keep him entire.[/QUOTE]

And this matters why ? Are you really hanging on to a rumor as a way to justify a TB that may or may not be jumping somewhere ?

You guys have come to a fork in the road. If you believe in what you say so much , then prove it.

Breed some sporthorses with Tb’s that are capable of competing with all the other horses in the showring or breeding shed. Until then…you are just the “neighbor” that can do it.

About tail carriage. I am sure you all know by now that I am a fanatic about PURE Arab blood. I have noticed that the undoubtedly pure (or as pure as one can find) Arab has a slightly different tail carriage than the other lines of Arabs, on through to the Shagya Arab. I have trained my eye to notice tail carriage.

The first thing I noticed in the Holstein mare line book was, in the pictures of the more ancient lineage mares (pre Ramzes AA), a tail carriage (and croup conformation) that showed undoubted Arab influence even though the rest of the horse did not show great amounts of Arab influence (except for some mitbahs.) So I went back in the pedigrees way, way back and found, your guessed it, Arab blood. There was more concentration of TB blood in these horses (through Ethelbert among others) than there was Arab blood, even so, in some lines, the croup/tail carriage showed much more Arab influence than TB influence in certain earlier Holstein horses. (This Arab influence was mainly through Amurath 1881, probably one of the most prepotent and influencial Arab stallions in history.)

And watching videos of modern Holstein horses, several of the ones who make it into international competition have a high tail carriage, not the tail carriage of an Arab, but a much higher tail carriage than I expected from a horse that is, to get down to the nitty gritty, a TB/colder blood cross. Yes, Ramses AA helped, but that good tail carriage predated Ramses AA, he just reinforced what was already there.

I ride hunt seat. I boarded for many years at a hunt seat barn that essentially worshiped TBs, pure or part. My sole paying horse job was at another hunter/jumper farm that had two TB stallions that the local hunt people used on their TB and high grade mares. Of the two TB stallions, the one most responsible for good jumpers had a better tail carriage than the other stallion who, though more powerful in the hindquarters, had a “normal” TB tail carriage The rest of the TBs I saw never really “carried” their tails expect in play, if then.

When I talk about tail carriage in the TBs I am talking about a horse that carries his tail a little higher than most TBs, and it is not very high when you get down to it. Holstein horses with “poor” tail carriage for a Holstein horse carry their tails higher than TBs with a good tail carriage for a TB.

Since Holstein horses look so much like TBs now compared to the Holsteins before the modern TB crosses (Lady Killer, Cottage Son) I for one would have thought the TB cross would be wonderful. Apparently it is not. Too bad. It would make life much simpler.

I am just trying to come up with alternate ideas for selecting a TB stallion that does not completely “kill the jump” since the current TB stallion selection process is obviously not getting the job done. It is a purely intellectual exercise on my part because if I ever get to the point I could breed horses it would be Arabs, not WBs.

How about the tail carriage of this yearling thoroughbred:
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-7Y3ZJ4RP.jpg

JC the high tail carriage in warmbloods hails from the days of carriage horses. Also from the Shagya and Anglo-Arabian blood! That is some potent stuff. :yes:

[QUOTE=Elles;8078615]
How about the tail carriage of this yearling thoroughbred:
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-7Y3ZJ4RP.jpg[/QUOTE]

That looks like a typical TB tail set to me. Lovely self carriage in the canter.

JC I have an anecdote for you. I had a TB who had knee action like a Hackney pony. Throwback to her Arabian ancestors too: dished face, frequently flagged her tail. Meanwhile her sire had won the Preakness. She was not a talented jumper, especially compared to my other TB mare, who had a typical TB tail set.

Based on the below links: why are there today no TB’s that can jump like the wonderful show jumping TB’s of the past if that really is the case?
Why did people bother to clone Gem Twist if the show jumping courses changed so much that the TB’s of the past would be useless? That about every horse of the past would be useless although the pedigrees of today’s jumpers are filled with ancestors that were the best show jumpers of the past?

[QUOTE=Elles;8078442]
http://www.martinmalone.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/crystal-cup-merano.jpg
http://www.martinmalone.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/20.Grand-Steeple-Chase-de-Paris.jpg
http://www.martinmalone.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/extreme-sud-620x331.jpg
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02695/pardubice_2695121b.jpg
http://img.ct24.cz/cache/616x411/article/30/2937/293677.jpg?1318176782
http://static.directmatin.fr/sites/default/files/styles/image_880_495/public/steeple.jpg?itok=iC7Hqei0
http://www.programme.tv/media/cache/relative_max_355x272/upload/epgs/2014/05/grand-steeple-chase-de-paris-2014_76312115_1.jpg
http://static2.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/4700-5/photos/1400438004-6000m-steeplechase-horse-race-in-paris_4780795.jpg

http://www.pegasus-farms.com/en/chevaux/mid-dancer--ch3.html
Linebreeding to all the usual suspects:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10572164&blood=10"a=
St. Simon, Nearco, Nasrullah, Native Dancer, Galopin, Pharos, Swynford, Teddy, etc.

This horse also won the Grand National de Paris three times:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10566537&blood=10"a=
and is also linebred to a lot of usual jumping suspects.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/kathy-kusner-and-three-thoroughbreds-challenged-tradition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcej-L63qY8
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10486168&blood=10"a=&z=tPtF5-[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8078248]
There’s a post on the eventing forum about an eventing tb who free jumped 7’ from a trot, per the person who tested him in her chute. His owner, a 4* eventer, plans to keep him entire.[/QUOTE]

Viney can you link to this?

This thread is the internet equivalent of the movie Groundhog Day.

[QUOTE=Elles;8078642]
Based on the below links: why are there today no TB’s that can jump like the wonderful show jumping TB’s of the past if that really is the case?
Why did people bother to clone Gem Twist if the show jumping courses changed so much that the TB’s of the past would be useless? That about every horse of the past would be useless although the pedigrees of today’s jumpers are filled with ancestors that were the best show jumpers of the past?[/QUOTE]

With regards to your pictures of the big fences races, I do not think we can compare to show jumping. First, it is about jumping fences at a realy fast pace, and they are very far from one another. The technical basis are not the same. Also, most of the fences ar about 1m10 high. Those who rise up to above 1m60, horses generaly simply jump through and not over. They are made of branches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-vMoSUrU3I

With regards to GEM Twist, he was in fact an exceptional horse, but is a horse from the past they “brought back to life” almost 3 decades after his birth. Wether we approuve of cloning or not is a whole other subject. But I agree that he would be an interesting stallion to use where blood is needed. As for me, I would not use a clone, and it has nothing to do with the fact that he is a TB.

With regards to your last point, I think the whole point of breeding is combining qualities of two horses to improve each one. A well managed, purposely made selection process would have as an objective to produce more horses that are better than each of their parents. Sometimes it works, sometime it doesn’t. On my part, I truly believe that the population has greatly evolved in general over the years. Are they better? That is up to everyone’s appreciation. But I strongly believe that they have evolved with their sport, and they are know better fitted to the sports new requirements.

[QUOTE=Elles;8078642]
Based on the below links: why are there today no TB’s that can jump like the wonderful show jumping TB’s of the past if that really is the case?
Why did people bother to clone Gem Twist if the show jumping courses changed so much that the TB’s of the past would be useless? That about every horse of the past would be useless although the pedigrees of today’s jumpers are filled with ancestors that were the best show jumpers of the past?[/QUOTE]

Elles away with your logic and examples, away! :lol: (I am kidding!)

Those pictures you linked to are INCREDIBLE. Wow. Thanks for posting those.

I remember reading that article about Untouchable in COTH magazine. It was a great piece.

For example this “old model” can be found in the pedigree of Hello Sanctos but of course I could not assume he could be given any credit for Hello Sanctos being an incredible horse. However today’s great horses have come from their ancestors…
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/20508