[QUOTE=Elles;8078672]
For example this “old model” can be found in the pedigree of Hello Sanctos but of course I could not assume he could be given any credit for Hello Sanctos being an incredible horse. However today’s great horses have come from their ancestors…
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/20508[/QUOTE]
Good example of a horse from a realy influancial TB. HIs grand sire, Rantzau, had a great impact on warmblood horse in general, principaly through his son Cor de la Bryere.
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/19310
I remember when someone posted a link to this horse coming from a TB mother line, and someone else said that the horse turning out the way he did was an accident.
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8078600]
About tail carriage. I am sure you all know by now that I am a fanatic about PURE Arab blood. I have noticed that the undoubtedly pure (or as pure as one can find) Arab has a slightly different tail carriage than the other lines of Arabs, on through to the Shagya Arab. I have trained my eye to notice tail carriage.
The first thing I noticed in the Holstein mare line book was, in the pictures of the more ancient lineage mares (pre Ramzes AA), a tail carriage (and croup conformation) that showed undoubted Arab influence even though the rest of the horse did not show great amounts of Arab influence (except for some mitbahs.) So I went back in the pedigrees way, way back and found, your guessed it, Arab blood. There was more concentration of TB blood in these horses (through Ethelbert among others) than there was Arab blood, even so, in some lines, the croup/tail carriage showed much more Arab influence than TB influence in certain earlier Holstein horses. (This Arab influence was mainly through Amurath 1881, probably one of the most prepotent and influencial Arab stallions in history.)
And watching videos of modern Holstein horses, several of the ones who make it into international competition have a high tail carriage, not the tail carriage of an Arab, but a much higher tail carriage than I expected from a horse that is, to get down to the nitty gritty, a TB/colder blood cross. Yes, Ramses AA helped, but that good tail carriage predated Ramses AA, he just reinforced what was already there.
I ride hunt seat. I boarded for many years at a hunt seat barn that essentially worshiped TBs, pure or part. My sole paying horse job was at another hunter/jumper farm that had two TB stallions that the local hunt people used on their TB and high grade mares. Of the two TB stallions, the one most responsible for good jumpers had a better tail carriage than the other stallion who, though more powerful in the hindquarters, had a “normal” TB tail carriage The rest of the TBs I saw never really “carried” their tails expect in play, if then.
When I talk about tail carriage in the TBs I am talking about a horse that carries his tail a little higher than most TBs, and it is not very high when you get down to it. Holstein horses with “poor” tail carriage for a Holstein horse carry their tails higher than TBs with a good tail carriage for a TB.
Since Holstein horses look so much like TBs now compared to the Holsteins before the modern TB crosses (Lady Killer, Cottage Son) I for one would have thought the TB cross would be wonderful. Apparently it is not. Too bad. It would make life much simpler.
I am just trying to come up with alternate ideas for selecting a TB stallion that does not completely “kill the jump” since the current TB stallion selection process is obviously not getting the job done. It is a purely intellectual exercise on my part because if I ever get to the point I could breed horses it would be Arabs, not WBs.[/QUOTE]
Ok…
Tail carriage is not indicative of jumping talent and to suggest that anyone select a TB (or any other breed for that matter) stallion for breeding because of the way they carry their tails is, IMO, silly. 
Grayarabpony, I am looking for TB characteristics that may cross well with the modern Holstein, NOT the TB characteristics that come with, say, a good steeplechase horse, flat racer, or international level arena jumpers, since this type of TB seems to “kill the jump” of the WBs in the modern F1 get.
I was looking at the conformation picture of Cor de la Bryere (half TB by the way), goose rump, dead tail at a standstill though he DID carry his tail somewhat in the jumping picture at take off. He needed the powerful haunches of the Holstein mares to form a successful line of show jumpers.
Today the WB breeders do not seem to need outside blood to ADD jumping ability, they need outside blood that does not DETRACT from the jumping ability they already have.
It will be interesting in the next few decades to see if dropping the TB outcrosses causes an increasing loss of “quality” and endurance in the modern WBs. I hope that the Holstein breed, as an example, has enough hot blood in the breed already so that the breed will no longer need refining outcrosses. We should know for sure in a few decades, say 4 to 6 generations since the last infusion of hot blood.
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8078746]
Grayarabpony, I am looking for TB characteristics that may cross well with the modern Holstein, NOT the TB characteristics that come with, say, a good steeplechase horse, flat racer, or international level arena jumpers, since this type of TB seems to “kill the jump” of the WBs in the modern F1 get.
I was looking at the conformation picture of Cor de la Bryere (half TB by the way), goose rump, dead tail at a standstill though he DID carry his tail somewhat in the jumping picture at take off. He needed the powerful haunches of the Holstein mares to form a successful line of show jumpers.
Today the WB breeders do not seem to need outside blood to ADD jumping ability, they need outside blood that does not DETRACT from the jumping ability they already have.
It will be interesting in the next few decades to see if dropping the TB outcrosses causes an increasing loss of “quality” and endurance in the modern WBs. I hope that the Holstein breed, as an example, has enough hot blood in the breed already so that the breed will no longer need refining outcrosses. We should know for sure in a few decades, say 4 to 6 generations since the last infusion of hot blood.[/QUOTE]
JC, I am speaking of TBs that have successfully competed at GP: Idle Dice, Jet Run, Gem Twist, Roven, Arkansas, etc, etc. TBs with the talent to succeed in the international jumping arena are not going to kill the warmblood jump despite what anyone on here says (although usually it’s said on here that TBs don’t have that kind of talent in the first place). The warmbloods have the TB to thank for the jump they have, a talented TB isn’t going to kill it.
Breeders are looking for a horse that can jump, not for a particular tail set.
There’s a video of Cor de la Bryere trotting and cantering around and he didn’t have a high tail set. He was a gorgeous horse with a regular tail set.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8078512]
Omare, great point, and I remember habving read same with regards to Cor de la Bryere. Thing is also, the great impact of the TB stallions would probably be seen late in their breeding carrers, when their daughters will be bred back and their own products will start showing results. Julio Mariner is the prime example of that. I do not think he was extremely popular as a stallion, but some breeder believed in his production. His daughters however became very in demand, not right away, but later, when the first products from Julio Mariners mares hit the show grounds.
One thing to take into account I think is also that the profile of the average breeder has change. More and more breeders are working with between 4 and 10 foals a year. They cannot necessarily risk to waste a year from their best broodmares by producing a half TB guelding hoping to get the filly they could probably work with.[/QUOTE]
Not so sure about this. Marius was the result of a TB x Holsteiner cross, was male and ended up winning 2008 Olympic gold in eventing. That might be a good marketing tactic for breeders who might want to use a TB–sell the males into eventing and save the mares for breeding. Event horse breeding is in its infancy, and, as Tom Reed says, purpose bred event horses who are not simply failures in dressage and show jumping and racing may be the future of the sport. Almost everyone, even German top class riders, seem to recognize that Blood close up is needed for a world class/ 4* performer. Klimke and Jung’s new horses seem to be TB crosses.
It’s not a rumor if the person tested the horse posted about it.
I passed it on because it seems to disprove the assertion that TBs can’t jump.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8078556]
And this matters why ? Are you really hanging on to a rumor as a way to justify a TB that may or may not be jumping somewhere ?
You guys have come to a fork in the road. If you believe in what you say so much , then prove it.
Breed some sporthorses with Tb’s that are capable of competing with all the other horses in the showring or breeding shed. Until then…you are just the “neighbor” that can do it.[/QUOTE]
It’s not a rumor if the person tested the horse posted about it. The horse is a race bred TB.
I passed it on because it seems to disprove the assertion that TBs can’t jump.
Once again, you seem to be implying that eventing is not a sport. If OTTBs can run 4s and occasionally win that’s enough proof for me that they can be world class sport horses. Eventing only has five 4s in the whole world compared to how many CSIO 5*s? FWIW, Ingrid Klimke rode a pure TB at Athens in 2004, and then the format change struck. She hasn’t ridden a pure TB since. Horses for courses. Change the course and you will change the horse.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8078858]
Not so sure about this. Marius was the result of a TB x Holsteiner cross, was male and ended up winning 2008 Olympic gold in eventing. That might be a good marketing tactic for breeders who might want to use a TB–sell the males into eventing and save the mares for breeding. Event horse breeding is in its infancy, and, as Tom Reed says, purpose bred event horses who are not simply failures in dressage and show jumping and racing may be the future of the sport. Almost everyone, even German top class riders, seem to recognize that Blood close up is needed for a world class/ 4* performer. Klimke and Jung’s new horses seem to be TB crosses.[/QUOTE]
I don´t recall if it is in this post or an other one, but I mentionned I AM not an expert in eventing . But I like the idea sui gestes by Tom. I think we will see interesting things from Breeders devoted to Breeding eventing spécialists. I think the good TB may very well be at the foundation of those programs.
I think the Eventing market will always be such a small part of the overall Sport Horse industry that breeders specializing in “just” Event horse will always be few. The lower levels don’t require a specialized horse and there just aren’t that many riders at the upper levels.
Plus the reality is that many aspiring Eventers will keep gravitating to the OTTB because they are cheap and plentiful.
[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8079068]
I think the Eventing market will always be such a small part of the overall Sport Horse industry that breeders specializing in “just” Event horse will always be few. The lower levels don’t require a specialized horse and there just aren’t that many riders at the upper levels.
Plus the reality is that many aspiring Eventers will keep gravitating to the OTTB because they are cheap and plentiful.[/QUOTE]
This is certainly not the case in Germany, Holland and Belgium. There are fewer than 1000 TB foals per year in Germany, far fewer than 100 in Holland, and I’d bet there there were fewer than 500 in Belgium. The Irish and British tend not to event pure TBs from their own tracks. It’s only in Australia and North America and possibly NZ that OTTBs are plentiful in eventing. The French have their AAs and traditional SFs and now AQPS with plenty of blood, so don’t seem to be attracted to OTTBs.
The traditional recipe in eventing, even in long format, was for a horse with 75% or more Blood–that includes AAs as well as TBs.
[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8079068]
I think the Eventing market will always be such a small part of the overall Sport Horse industry that breeders specializing in “just” Event horse will always be few. The lower levels don’t require a specialized horse and there just aren’t that many riders at the upper levels.
Plus the reality is that many aspiring Eventers will keep gravitating to the OTTB because they are cheap and plentiful.[/QUOTE]
I have à feeling that eventing has been gaining in popularity in the récent years. Event people correct me if I am wrong, but I feel à growing interest for lower level eventing in eastern Canada and NE USA. Same thing seems to happen in France, Belgium and Germany.
The lower levels in any English horse sport don’t require specialized horses, except maybe hunters. But not in the Olympic disciplines.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8079164]
The lower levels in any English horse sport don’t require specialized horses, except maybe hunters. But not in the Olympic disciplines.[/QUOTE]
True, but what I meant is that a sport gaining in popularity in the lowest level is a healthy sport. Elite riders should develop and the market should increase, hopefully.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8078885]
It’s not a rumor if the person tested the horse posted about it. The horse is a race bred TB.
I passed it on because it seems to disprove the assertion that TBs can’t jump.
Once again, you seem to be implying that eventing is not a sport. If OTTBs can run 4s and occasionally win that’s enough proof for me that they can be world class sport horses. Eventing only has five 4s in the whole world compared to how many CSIO 5*s? FWIW, Ingrid Klimke rode a pure TB at Athens in 2004, and then the format change struck. She hasn’t ridden a pure TB since. Horses for courses. Change the course and you will change the horse.[/QUOTE]
No one said Tb’s can’t jump. They just can’t jump good enough for most serious breeders of today to take a chance on them. I certainly will not. Who wants to breed backwards today ?
I never implied eventing was not a sport and in fact have said repeatedly here that I have much respect for the horses and riders who compete in this Olympic discipline.
Again , I would never use straight Tb’s for event breeding today. I would use the TB blood on top of a warmblood mare just as the last winners of the biggest competitions in the world have been bred.
Straight TB’s don’t consistently win anything anymore… except for the racing they were bred for.
Here are the first ten horses on the entry list for Badminton 2015. Badminton is, without a doubt, the most difficult 4* in the world.
TS Jamaimo TB Christopher Burton, AUS Olympian
Happy Times OLD TB sire (Heraldik), Sam Griffiths, AUS Olympian 63.87 % Blood
Paulank Brockagh. ISH Sam Griffiths, AUS Olympian 62.30% Blood, but no TB parent
Lanfranco TRK TB sire, Andrew Hoy, AUS Olympian 76.76% Blood
Rutherglen HAN TB damsire, Andrew Hoy, AUS Olympian 45.90% Blood
Shannondale Titan ISH Bill Levett AUS 39.65% Blood
Clifton Pinot, TB, Kevin McNab, AUS
Indian Mill, TB, Paul Tapner AUS Olympian
Kilronan, ISH, TB Sire (Ghareeb), Paul Tapner AUS Olympian, 63.48% Blood
Grass Valley, ISH TB sire Gabriel Silva Cury BRZ 75%+ Blood
The pedigree of the TB that cleared a 7’ jump from a trot: http://www.pedigreequery.com/pams+luc
Rodney Jenkins says that Idle Dice could clear 6’ from a trot.
Could someone please explain to me how steeplechase horses can jump obstacles of 1.60 metres high only by using speed?
On this page the dimension of obstacles can be seen:
http://www.galoway.com/la_passion_du_cheval/le_cheval_de_a_a_web/la_discipline/les_courses_obstacles.htm
Elles, in steeplechase, the highest fences are not solid. The solid one are generaly not higher than 1m10. The fences are made of “brushes” and horses jump through, not over.
The material is not soft and giving enough to really jump through the material and only jump 1.10 metres high.
http://www.france-galop.com/uploads/tx_fgpcontent/Dp_GD_STEEPLE_CHASE_2011_low_3.pdf
http://sport24.lefigaro.fr/paris-hippiques/hippisme/actualite/grand-steeple-chase-de-paris-un-parcours-legendaire-383440
Bullfinch. Haut (1,70 mêtres ), constitué de balais de genêts sombres et denses, il est impressionnant. Mais les concurrents le franchissent en traversant sa partie supérieure.
Translation :
Bullfinch. High (1.70 meters), consisting of dark and dense broom brushes, it is impressive. But competitors cross it through its upper part.
Still, I do not think only speed is needed to jump the obstacles. Also power / strength is needed.
About the highest timber fence in the Maryland Hunt Cup:
100 Years of The Maryland Hunt Cup - The Equiery
www.equiery.com/archives/Steeplechase/100YearsHuntCup.html?CachedSimilar
Mr. Winants authored books on steeplechase champions Jay Trump and Flatterer
. … Spring Valley Hounds and the Elkridge Hounds as to the ability of their
hunters. … Through the years, the course of four miles and 22 challenging timber
fences has … The third fence, for instance, stands 4’10" high with nearly
unbreakable …
Steeplechasing | EQUINE Ink
equineink.com/category/steeplechasing/?Cached
23 Dec 2014 … Posts about Steeplechasing written by Liz Goldsmith. … Neptune Collonges was
by no means the biggest underdog to triumph … appeared in an exhausted state
before falling at the third-last fence. … Fences in the Maryland Hunt Cup are
between 4? and 4’10! … Will Neptune Collonges take up hunting?
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