New decision in Holstein

Elles that is exactly what your first post says, that they jump through the brushes… If you look at any video of steeplechase, you will see them jump through the brushes.

As for your Maryland Hunt Cup, even if their is a 4’10 vertical over a 22 fences course, it only means that some of the horses can jump 1 fence of that hight. Many many horses can do that and I agree, you will find many TB able to jump one fence of that hight. That doesn’t mean they could jump an oxer, or a combination, or the same fense from a tricky distance, or even 4 in a row. And the speed helps. I am not going to give a crash course in physics here, but to jump a fence, you need to adapt you trajectory taking into account the with and the hight you need to cross. Then it is all a question of energy. Your speed will allow you to cross the distance so your force can be applied to your push up. To cross same fence from closer, at a collected canter will imply that your horse will have to generate more energy on the push to cross bot the width and the hight. I am no physicians and I am sure someone better than me will correct me on the specifics but I think that this is generaly correct (or at least reasonnable form someone who studied physics in highscholl 3 or 20 years ago…) . But when you learned high jump in school, you learned how to generate energiy in your approach, and how to transer it horizontaly so you only have to push up and bascule. Same with horses.

Chiming in to say that steeplechase horses do in fact drag their legs through the brush. And event horses that did the long format did the same. A former riding instructor was long listed for the Rome Olympics, but broke her leg in a fall the week before the trials. The cause? She was schooling steeplechase, and someone had laid a pole in the brush of several jumps so their greenie would respect the jump. It was apparently a somewhat common training technique with greenies, but the person neglected to remove the poles after their schooling session. My instructor’s horse dragged his legs through the brush as he had been taught, and caught the pole. It was a nasty crash and horse and rider were both lucky they weren’t injured more seriously.

Something about today’s course design:
http://equestrisol.com/coreEQS/category/conversations-with-course-designers/

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8078545]
Sorry, not impressed by your seminar. That flies in the face of how horses’ breeding is generally acknowledged in Europe. Anyway, without Forrest xx there would have been no Famm…[/QUOTE]

And I suppose you know more about “how horses’ breeding is generally acknowledged in Europe”, than an official from a VERY large and successful Verband? :wink:

Sorry, we’re not impressed by the opinions of a megalomaniac.

Here it has been written in the normal way:
Dakota runner-up in free jumping - News - Stal Everse
www.staleverse.nl/en/nieuws/283-Dakota-runner-up-in-free-jumping?Cached
10 Apr 2011 … The 3-year-old mare Dakota (by Sir Shutterfly), owned by Everse … The bay mare
is a daughter of Sir Shutterfly (Silvio I x Forrest xx), a full …

People were before talking about the fact that free jumping of TB’s or TB cross horses is often not very good. But with free jumping only a small number of fences follow each other in a straight line and normally only one fence is really tall. How can it be determined from the free jump if the under saddle courses are so completely different?

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8079508]
Here are the first ten horses on the entry list for Badminton 2015. Badminton is, without a doubt, the most difficult 4* in the world.

TS Jamaimo TB Christopher Burton, AUS Olympian
Happy Times OLD TB sire (Heraldik), Sam Griffiths, AUS Olympian 63.87 % Blood
Paulank Brockagh. ISH Sam Griffiths, AUS Olympian 62.30% Blood, but no TB parent
Lanfranco TRK TB sire, Andrew Hoy, AUS Olympian 76.76% Blood
Rutherglen HAN TB damsire, Andrew Hoy, AUS Olympian 45.90% Blood
Shannondale Titan ISH Bill Levett AUS 39.65% Blood
Clifton Pinot, TB, Kevin McNab, AUS
Indian Mill, TB, Paul Tapner AUS Olympian
Kilronan, ISH, TB Sire (Ghareeb), Paul Tapner AUS Olympian, 63.48% Blood
Grass Valley, ISH TB sire Gabriel Silva Cury BRZ 75%+ Blood[/QUOTE]

Super ! Lets see if a straight Tb can win. They haven’t in the last several Olympics.

[QUOTE=Elles;8079834]
Here it has been written in the normal way:
Dakota runner-up in free jumping - News - Stal Everse
www.staleverse.nl/en/nieuws/283-Dakota-runner-up-in-free-jumping?Cached
10 Apr 2011 … The 3-year-old mare Dakota (by Sir Shutterfly), owned by Everse … The bay mare
is a daughter of Sir Shutterfly (Silvio I x Forrest xx), a full …[/QUOTE]

Elles,

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but sometimes I have trouble following your logic. How does the success of this mare in freejumping relate to this thread? She has less than 50% blood with the closest TB being Forrest xx in the 3rd.

Freejumping is an excellent way to see a horse’s natural scope and technique, but it doesn’t always translate to success with a rider whether WB or TB.

[QUOTE=Elles;8079866]
People were before talking about the fact that free jumping of TB’s or TB cross horses is often not very good. But with free jumping only a small number of fences follow each other in a straight line and normally only one fence is really tall. How can it be determined from the free jump if the under saddle courses are so completely different?[/QUOTE]

Free jumping is not an end in itself, but rather a tool used to evaluate young sport horses and breeding stock. These events are often spectacular, but the jumps are not that high. For the 3 yo stallions, the last oxer does not generally exceed 1m20, and about the same in width. You are right, this tool has its limit as almost every horse at 4 yo can jump one fence at those hights. However it allows to evaluate the general technique of the horse, the bascule, the quickness of the front end etc. Also, as with young horses the approach is not always perfect even with the poles and smaller fence in front, it allows us to see how the horse get out of tricky situation. Evene if generally all horses are able to jump the fences, you can already sense if the horse jump it easily or if it his maxed out. As mentionned earlyer, I think it is a valuable tool when you know the limit of what it shows, but it doesn’t show everything.

According to horsetelex, TBs currently stand 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 14th and 15th in the top 20 world rankings for eventing. So apparently TBs CAN win at something besides racing.

Impressive I think, but the WB fans will most likely find some way to discount/dismiss this, as they do with most evidence (past or present) that demonstrates the ability of the TB as a sport horse.

Sorry, it was as a response to the post just before mine.
It is because of this remark: flies in the face of how horses’ breeding is generally acknowledged in Europe.
On a number of internet pages the breeding of Shutterfly has been mentioned as it normally is by only giving the names of the sires and not the dams.
Someone said that during a seminar all direct ancestors of Shutterfly were mentioned but that Forrest xx was not mentioned by name. To state how unimportant Forrest xx can be considered to be in the pedigree of Shutterfly.

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8079900]
Elles,

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but sometimes I have trouble following your logic. How does the success of this mare in freejumping relate to this thread? She has less than 50% blood with the closest TB being Forrest xx in the 3rd.

Freejumping is an excellent way to see a horse’s natural scope and technique, but it doesn’t always translate to success with a rider whether WB or TB.[/QUOTE]

According to horsetelex, TBs currently stand 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 14th and 15th in the top 20 world rankings for eventing. So apparently TBs CAN win at something besides racing.

Impressive I think, but the WB fans will most likely find some way to discount/dismiss this, as they do with most evidence (past or present) that demonstrates the ability of the TB as a sport horse.

No one has said TBs can’t win and even Bayhawk has repeatedly stated how important TB blood has been to WB breeding. However, as breeders, it is important to try to stack the odds in your favor and statistically, even in your example, the WBs are on top.

A high percentage of TB blood is especially important in eventing, but according to your post, full TBs hold 6 out of the top 20 spots while WBs of various registries hold 14. That’s better than 2-1 in favor of highly blooded WBs. As a breeder that is significant.

I am a TB fan, but if I was breeding for eventers, I would go with the odds and try for WBs with a significant amount of TB blood. Not trying in any way to dismiss or discount that TB blood.

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8079953]
No one has said TBs can’t win and even Bayhawk has repeatedly stated how important TB blood has been to WB breeding. However, as breeders, it is important to try to stack the odds in your favor and statistically, even in your example, the WBs are on top.

A high percentage of TB blood is especially important in eventing, but according to your post, full TBs hold 6 out of the top 20 spots while WBs of various registries hold 14. That’s better than 2-1 in favor of highly blooded WBs. As a breeder that is significant.

I am a TB fan, but if I was breeding for eventers, I would go with the odds and try for WBs with a significant amount of TB blood. Not trying in any way to dismiss or discount that TB blood.[/QUOTE]

According to Bayhawk, above: “Straight TB’s don’t consistently win anything anymore… except for the racing they were bred for.”

Perhaps you really are a TB fan, but your comments fall right in line with what I said in my post about discrediting any evidence of TB success. Really, is it so hard to just acknowledge it, even if you still believe WBs are the best horses ever? Good horses come in all shapes, sizes and breeds.

[QUOTE=Elles;8079930]
Sorry, it was as a response to the post just before mine.
It is because of this remark: flies in the face of how horses’ breeding is generally acknowledged in Europe.
On a number of internet pages the breeding of Shutterfly has been mentioned as it normally is by only giving the names of the sires and not the dams.
Someone said that during a seminar all direct ancestors of Shutterfly were mentioned but that Forrest xx was not mentioned by name. To state how unimportant Forrest xx can be considered to be in the pedigree of Shutterfly.[/QUOTE]

I get it now. :slight_smile:

I can see both sides of that one. While Forrest xx must be credited with his successful progeny, including his daughter, Famm. Her success as a broodmare really was extraordinary, easily surpassing all of his other offspring. While it is the norm for breeding specs to list sire/ damsire, it is no secret how much credit is given to the mare lines.

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8079986]
According to Bayhawk, above: “Straight TB’s don’t consistently win anything anymore… except for the racing they were bred for.”

Perhaps you really are a TB fan, but your comments fall right in line with what I said in my post about discrediting any evidence of TB success. Really, is it so hard to just acknowledge it, even if you still believe WBs are the best horses ever? Good horses come in all shapes, sizes and breeds.[/QUOTE]

I’m a breeder and this is a breeding forum, so you shouldn’t be offended that many of us look at things with an eye toward increasing our odds of producing top horses.

I believe there are TBs who can compete with top WBs, even in (gasp!) showjumping. Good horses do come in all shapes and sizes. I completely agree! I had a little AQHA horse that could probably out jump any of Bayhawk’s homebreds. He was an exception. TBs in the GP ring may be spectacular, but they are exceptions. I don’t think many breeders can afford to breed for exceptions.

Bayhawk didn’t say TBs couldn’t win, he said they didn’t win with any consistency and he’s right. TBs are consistently the best in racing, Arabs are consistently the best in endurance, WBs are consistently the best jumpers. Occasionally, some other breed will surprise and delight us all, who doesn’t love an underdog?

It isn’t a dis to play the odds.

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8080034]
I’m a breeder and this is a breeding forum, so you shouldn’t be offended that many of us look at things with an eye toward increasing our odds of producing top horses.

I believe there are TBs who can compete with top WBs, even in (gasp!) showjumping. Good horses do come in all shapes and sizes. I completely agree! I had a little AQHA horse that could probably out jump any of Bayhawk’s homebreds. He was an exception. TBs in the GP ring may be spectacular, but they are exceptions. I don’t think many breeders can afford to breed for exceptions.

Bayhawk didn’t say TBs couldn’t win, he said they didn’t win with any consistency and he’s right. TBs are consistently the best in racing, Arabs are consistently the best in endurance, WBs are consistently the best jumpers. Occasionally, some other breed will surprise and delight us all, who doesn’t love an underdog?

It isn’t a dis to play the odds.[/QUOTE]

The discussion is about improving the warmbloods that are here in the US too. Sorry but I don’t think using mares that are not top-notch producers (and probably not that many have slipped through the net and ended up here) and expecting top results is going with the odds. The US is also at a disadvantage because hunters are far more popular here than jumpers and the number of jumper breeders here isn’t that large.

The use of TBs in sport horse breeding also involved discussions of using uber-talented horses that come your way. That’s what Europeans have done in the past (and presumably still do now) and what New Zealanders did with Brilliant Invader.

Warmbloods are dominating because of the European breeding and marketing machine and culture. Some posters make it sound like the US not producing top jumpers is mostly the fault of the TB, when, let’s face it, there’s no shortage of people breeding mediocre mares to a good stallion and expecting the offspring to be just like the stallion. Or breeding a mare to give her a “job”.

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8079989]
I get it now. :slight_smile:

I can see both sides of that one. While Forrest xx must be credited with his successful progeny, including his daughter, Famm. Her success as a broodmare really was extraordinary, easily surpassing all of his other offspring. While it is the norm for breeding specs to list sire/ damsire, it is no secret how much credit is given to the mare lines.[/QUOTE]

True, but Famm wasn’t the only offspring of Forrest xx to produce a 1.6m jumper.

http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/314970

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8080034]

Bayhawk didn’t say TBs couldn’t win, he said they didn’t win with any consistency and he’s right. [/QUOTE]

I think holding 6 of the top 20 rankings in eventing worldwide is a pretty good indicator of TBs winning with consistency.

I have no problem with someone trying to breed the best horses possible–regardless of their definition of “best”–but I don’t think it’s OK to continually bash another breed just because it’s not your chosen one. It’s OK to have a favorite breed. It’s not OK to bash someone else’s favorite or–as so often happens here–tell that “someone else” that they’re ignorant, inexperienced or worse. JMHO

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8080114]
I think holding 6 of the top 20 rankings in eventing worldwide is a pretty good indicator of TBs winning with consistency.

I have no problem with someone trying to breed the best horses possible–regardless of their definition of “best”–but I don’t think it’s OK to continually bash another breed just because it’s not your chosen one. It’s OK to have a favorite breed. It’s not OK to bash someone else’s favorite or–as so often happens here–tell that “someone else” that they’re ignorant, inexperienced or worse. JMHO[/QUOTE]

Thank you for posting this.

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8079924]
According to horsetelex, TBs currently stand 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 14th and 15th in the top 20 world rankings for eventing. So apparently TBs CAN win at something besides racing.

Impressive I think, but the WB fans will most likely find some way to discount/dismiss this, as they do with most evidence (past or present) that demonstrates the ability of the TB as a sport horse.[/QUOTE]

So 14 out of the top 20 are NOT Tb’s including positions 1 & 2 ? My point…