Bayhawk, you keep changing the subject, which is the place of TBs in sport horse breeding. The number one event horse so far in 2015 is an SF who has never done a 4*; number 2 is Sam, who has a pure TB sire and damsire. I think that anyone who is objective would say that the TBs in Sam’s breeding have had an effect on the final product.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8080243]
Bayhawk, you keep changing the subject, which is the place of TBs in sport horse breeding. The number one event horse so far in 2015 is an SF who has never done a 4*; number 2 is Sam, who has a pure TB sire and damsire. I think that anyone who is objective would say that the TBs in Sam’s breeding have had an effect on the final product.[/QUOTE]
No one said they don’t have an affect. They absolutely have an affect on most warmbloods today.
The point remains that affect is over for a while…the results show and the breeders know.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8080193]
So 14 out of the top 20 are NOT Tb’s including positions 1 & 2 ? My point…[/QUOTE]
So by this analysis, 15 of the top 20 horses in jumping are NOT Holsteiners. Are they having trouble placing consistently?
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8080193]
So 14 out of the top 20 are NOT Tb’s including positions 1 & 2 ? My point…[/QUOTE]
How much of that is economics, vs. current fashion, vs. real superiority?
From a statistical perspective those numbers don’t necessary mean that TB’s are inferior.
[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8080276]
So by this analysis, 15 of the top 20 horses in jumping are NOT Holsteiners. Are they having trouble placing consistently?[/QUOTE]
Really ? Here are the accurate stats as of todays rankings. You want a comparative analysis ? Here you go.
Todays rankings of the top 20 showjumpers in the world are as follows :
Holstein - 3
Sf - 3
Hann - 3
AES - - 2
West - -2
BWP - 2
Zang - 1
LaSilla - 1
SbS - 1
Brandenburg - 1
SWB - 1
KWPN - 0
Holstein is tied for the lead with the most representatives of any studbook. Another 6 of these horses in the top 20 are sired or damsired by a Holsteiner.
No Tb’s in sight as usual.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8080278]
How much of that is economics, vs. current fashion, vs. real superiority?
From a statistical perspective those numbers don’t necessary mean that TB’s are inferior.[/QUOTE]
You know the stove is hot. You’ve been told the stove is hot. You’ve been warned not to touch the stove because it’s hot… yet you touch it anyway.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8080340]
You know the stove is hot. You’ve been told the stove is hot. You’ve been warned not to touch the stove because it’s hot… yet you touch it anyway.[/QUOTE]
I have no idea what you are getting at. My point is that just referring to some percentage alone doesn’t tell you the whole story.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8080319]
Really ? Here are the accurate stats as of todays rankings. You want a comparative analysis ? Here you go.
Todays rankings of the top 20 showjumpers in the world are as follows :
Holstein - 3
Sf - 3
Hann - 3
AES - - 2
West - -2
BWP - 2
Zang - 1
LaSilla - 1
SbS - 1
Brandenburg - 1
SWB - 1
KWPN - 0
Holstein is tied for the lead with the most representatives of any studbook. Another 6 of these horses in the top 20 are sired or damsired by a Holsteiner.
No Tb’s in sight as usual.[/QUOTE]
Well I got 5/20 from horsetelex jumping rankings, so let’s give the Holsteiners that. As for those other 6 that were sired or damsired by a Holsteiner, THEY ARE NOT HOLSTEINERS, any more than a WB sired or damsired by a TB is NOT A TB–as you’re so fond of reminding us.
Back to the eventing rankings, TB is tied (with Selle Francais) for the lead with the most representatives of any studbook.
I just love data!
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8080082]
T
Some posters make it sound like the US not producing top jumpers is mostly the fault of the TB, when, let’s face it, there’s no shortage of people breeding mediocre mares to a good stallion and expecting the offspring to be just like the stallion. Or breeding a mare to give her a “job”.[/QUOTE]
And, just where do you think those “mediocre” mares are coming from?
[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8080114]
I have no problem with someone trying to breed the best horses possible–regardless of their definition of “best”–but I don’t think it’s OK to continually bash another breed just because it’s not your chosen one. It’s OK to have a favorite breed. It’s not OK to bash someone else’s favorite or–as so often happens here–tell that “someone else” that they’re ignorant, inexperienced or worse. JMHO[/QUOTE]
I don’t think I’ve bashed anyone or any breed. If you think I have, I apologize.
FWIW, TBs are my favorite breed. 
That’s why I’ve been willing to overlook current statistics and use one. 
I am not at all offended that Bayhawk thinks that’s a mistake on my part. I appreciate his candor, and I believe it has improved my chances for success.
[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8080395]
Well I got 5/20 from horsetelex jumping rankings, so let’s give the Holsteiners that. As for those other 6 that were sired or damsired by a Holsteiner, THEY ARE NOT HOLSTEINERS, any more than a WB sired or damsired by a TB is NOT A TB–as you’re so fond of reminding us.
Back to the eventing rankings, TB is tied (with Selle Francais) for the lead with the most representatives of any studbook.
I just love data![/QUOTE]
I only mention the others that were sired or damsired by Holsteiners to illustrate even more direct influence. You can’t say that about Tb’s.
[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8080423]
I don’t think I’ve bashed anyone or any breed. If you think I have, I apologize.
FWIW, TBs are my favorite breed. That’s why I’ve been willing to overlook current statistics and use one. I am not at all offended that Bayhawk thinks that’s a mistake on my part. I appreciate his candor, and I believe it has improved my chances for success.[/QUOTE]
This ^^^^^. As long as you know what your getting in to. One must have all the knowledge they can and not make their decisions based off some days gone past love affair where breeding horses are concerned.
[QUOTE=Go Fish;8080404]
And, just where do you think those “mediocre” mares are coming from?[/QUOTE]
Like Dr. Nissen said…“we have for years been seeing the products of mating Holsteiner Stallions with TB mares in the U.S. , and the result is not desirable” .
[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8080423]
I don’t think I’ve bashed anyone or any breed. If you think I have, I apologize.
FWIW, TBs are my favorite breed. That’s why I’ve been willing to overlook current statistics and use one. I am not at all offended that Bayhawk thinks that’s a mistake on my part. I appreciate his candor, and I believe it has improved my chances for success.[/QUOTE]
All in all, you don’t seem to be a basher, although I was a little miffed at your agreement with Bayhawk’s statement that TBs couldn’t compete consistently in anything except racing. Then again, that led to my foray into eventing stats, which was fun (really).
Interesting to hear about you using a TB. I’m a TB fan (duh), but my senior broodmare is in foal to a WB (Ironman), due last of May. So it seems that at least 2 of us are not straight “party line” breeders! Like I said, a good horse is a good horse.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8080502]
Like Dr. Nissen said…“we have for years been seeing the products of mating Holsteiner Stallions with TB mares in the U.S. , and the result is not desirable” .[/QUOTE]
Not desirable for what and who is he referring to? All breeders who do this as a profession? All people who own a mare who they breed? Not desireable for upper level sport? International sport? any sport? and who are the mares? Any mare? carefully selected mares? approved mares?
People have different objectives when they breed horses. Some people like tall, big moving horses and some a good mover but with more modest gaits that are easier to sit. Some people are breeding for a superstart mover and others want to go for temperament.
It is clear that you have some strong opinions, but that doesn’t mean that people who like TB’s or use them in their programs are producing undesireable horses. It’s a matter of perspective depending on what the objectives are.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8080521]
Not desirable for what and who is he referring to? All breeders who do this as a profession? All people who own a mare who they breed? Not desireable for upper level sport? International sport? any sport? and who are the mares? Any mare? carefully selected mares? approved mares?
People have different objectives when they breed horses. Some people like tall, big moving horses and some a good mover but with more modest gaits that are easier to sit. Some people are breeding for a superstart mover and others want to go for temperament.
It is clear that you have some strong opinions, but that doesn’t mean that people who like TB’s or use them in their programs are producing undesireable horses. It’s a matter of perspective depending on what the objectives are.[/QUOTE]
For breeding jumpers and furtherment of the breed , obviously.
If you had seen these F-1 crosses like I have , you would know that these horses are not where they need to be, period. 2 horses in one body…
Here we can all see in how far the horses jump through the fences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acTeRphUkAU
Still I find it a feat that these horse are able to jump some of these 1.70 metres obstacles this way with that kind of speed. And also that at the end of the 5.800 metres the horses still do not seem to be tired.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8079710]
Elles, in steeplechase, the highest fences are not solid. The solid one are generaly not higher than 1m10. The fences are made of “brushes” and horses jump through, not over.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8080521]
Not desirable for what and who is he referring to? All breeders who do this as a profession? All people who own a mare who they breed? Not desireable for upper level sport? International sport? any sport? and who are the mares? Any mare? carefully selected mares? approved mares?
People have different objectives when they breed horses. Some people like tall, big moving horses and some a good mover but with more modest gaits that are easier to sit. Some people are breeding for a superstart mover and others want to go for temperament.
It is clear that you have some strong opinions, but that doesn’t mean that people who like TB’s or use them in their programs are producing undesireable horses. It’s a matter of perspective depending on what the objectives are.[/QUOTE]
It is not about preventing people to breed the mares they love. But the purpose of breeding sporthorses is to improve the horses for what they are bred for, this being good athletes for olympic disciplines. The sole goal of any breeding association is to try to produce the best horse for the sport. Of course you may not need that best horse, or wich to produce that best horse. But their are millions of average to below average horses produced every years in the USA and around the world. A breeding program sets a standard to thrive to, and this standard is “the best horse possible”. Horses were not desirable in a program striving to produce the best horse possible for the olympic discipline (in holsteiner predominently SJ), at the highest level.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8080549]
For breeding jumpers and furtherment of the breed , obviously.
If you had seen these F-1 crosses like I have , you would know that these horses are not where they need to be, period. 2 horses in one body…[/QUOTE]
As I mentioned earlier, there are many different types of riders and breeders out there with different objectives. Just because they aren’t breeding for one purpose doesn’t imply that they are therefore bad for all other purposes.I think the word “obviously” should be taken out because that doesn’t contribute to the present discussion and only drags the thread down with snark that is unnecessary.
I know of many breeders in the US who are crossing TB mares with WB stallions and these have done very well at Devon and then later on under saddle. I don’t think you can make big sweeping statements like you have unless you take a better sample.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8080521]
It is clear that you have some strong opinions, but that doesn’t mean that people who like TB’s or use them in their programs are producing undesireable horses. It’s a matter of perspective depending on what the objectives are.[/QUOTE]
Totally comes down to breeding objectives. I think from the verbands’ perspectives, such crosses, on average, tend not to produce upper level jumping horses or upper level dressage horses. So “undesirable” from that perspective, not that these horses have no value. In fact, some of such horses may be very valuable in the U.S., especially as hunters.
I have bred a few hunters that might arguably be “undesirable” from the verband’s perspective – it doesn’t stop me from smiling all the way to the bank.
