http://www.mercurybloodstock.com/pdf/Insatiable_1a.pdf
if the jumping horse in the above link would be a warmblood a lot more people would feel a bit more admiration for what that horse does in that picture…
[QUOTE=Elles;8080551]
Here we can all see in how far the horses jump through the fences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acTeRphUkAU
Still I find it a feat that these horse are able to jump some of these 1.70 metres obstacles this way with that kind of speed. And also that at the end of the 5.800 metres the horses still do not seem to be tired.[/QUOTE]
I am not sure I understand your point. Go at 50 seconds of your video, you will see how they jump the big fences see how these bigger fences are jumped. The white gates are probably anywhere between 70 cm to 1m. The horses, in my opinion, barely jump 1m10.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8080557]
It is not about preventing people to breed the mares they love. But the purpose of breeding sporthorses is to improve the horses for what they are bred for, this being good athletes for olympic disciplines. The sole goal of any breeding association is to try to produce the best horse for the sport. Of course you may not need that best horse, or wich to produce that best horse. But their are millions of average to below average horses produced every years in the USA and around the world. A breeding program sets a standard to thrive to, and this standard is “the best horse possible”. Horses were not desirable in a program striving to produce the best horse possible for the olympic discipline (in holsteiner predominently SJ), at the highest level.[/QUOTE]
That is a much more sensible response than what Bayhawk said. If someone is trying to improve the breed, then they would want to carefully select the mares and stallions used, not just any mare of any stallion of any breed. I would assume they would be carefull with the mares go into the book whether they are TB trying to get approval (if that studbook allows it) or a WB mare.
I earlier wrote about these obstacles in this topic! And I mentioned the hight of some of these fences. You can see for yourself that the horse might sometimes brush through the top 20 centimetres fo the obstacles but not more than that.
Hauteur means the hight of the obstacle and largeur how wide the obstacle is.
http://www.turfoo.fr/actualites-hippiques/courses-hippiques/110524/parcours-grand-steeple-chase-de-paris/
It is these wonderful horses that make it look easy, it is not the obstacles that are easy.
1] 1ère Haie
Hauteur 1.10 m - Largeur 2.60 m.
Cet obstacle est constitué de balais de bruyère synthétique.
2] Double Barrière
Hauteur 1.65 m - Largeur 1.70 m.
Les chevaux d’expérience savent que cet obstacle végétal, composé de troènes encadrés par une barrière de trois barres blanches avec une protection de mousse, se traverse en partie et ne se saute pas totalement. Les débutants ont tendance à le sauter en hauteur sans « brousser ».
3] Le Bull Finch
Hauteur 1.90 m - Largeur 3.20 m.
Cet obstacle est similaire à la Double Barrière, avec une hauteur légèrement plus importante et un aspect impressionnant car il est constitué par des balais de genêts sombres et denses.
4] L’Oxer
Hauteur 1.10 m - Largeur 2.85 m.
Si le jockey anticipe bien l’obstacle, le cheval franchit sans problème particulier cette double haie de balais de bruyère synthétique, placée en début de parcours.
5] Rivière des tribunes
Hauteur 1.00 m - Largeur 5.50 m.
Obstacle tout à la fois impressionnant et simple à franchir. Le cheval doit le franchir avec une vitesse suffisante pour effectuer un bond de plus de huit mètres. Les néophytes marquent un petit temps d’arrêt dû à l’appréhension. Les chevaux expérimentés sautent l’obstacle tout en souplesse. La difficulté se situe au niveau de la réception qui parfois entraîne des chutes ou occasionne un léger contretemps.
6] Haie du Pavillon
Hauteur 1.10 m - Largeur 2.60 m.
Obstacle situé à la hauteur de l’ancienne Tribune du Pavillon et dont les caractéristiques sont identiques au n°1.
Passage sur la piste intérieure
7] Petit Open-Ditch
Hauteur 1.30 m - Largeur 3.10 m.
Situé au tournant d’Auteuil, cet obstacle est composé de trois épaisseurs de haies de bruyère synthétique que précède une barrière blanche. le jockey doit impérativement bien négocier le virage pour aborder l’obstacle dans les meilleures conditions.
8] Talus en terre
Hauteur 1.35 m - Largeur 3.15 m.
Cet obstacle en terre, surmonté de petits balais de bruyère, oblige les chevaux à lever les épaules pour effectuer un véritable bond. Le cheval qui accroche son faîte risque la chute.
9] Le Brook
Hauteur 0.80 m - Largeur 3.45 m.
Cet obstacle est une barrière en bois inclinée surplombant une petite rivière et il impose un véritable bond de 4 mètres.
10] Gros Open-Ditch
Hauteur 1.50 m - Largeur 3.70 m.
Entre le Brook et le Gros Open Ditch, les chevaux parcourent une distance d’environ 300 m sur le plat ce qui leur permet de prendre la vitesse nécessaire pour aborder cet obstacle qui constitue la première grosse difficulté du parcours. Sa double haie de troènes encadre une haie de bruyère naturelle, ce qui donne un aspect bicolore à l’Obstacle.
11] Mur de pierres
Hauteur 1.10 m - Largeur 2.20 m.
Sa constitution n’autorise par la faute. Il doit se franchir sans aucun contact, sous peine de chute.
12] Haie
Hauteur 1.10 m - Largeur 2.60 m.
Obstacle dont les caractéristiques sont identiques au n°1.
13] Double Barrière
Hauteur 1.65 m - Largeur 1.70 m.
Obstacle déjà franchi (n°2), mais abordé cette fois-ci corde à gauche.
14] Haie
Hauteur 1.10 m - Largeur 2.60 m.
Obstacle dont les caractéristiques sont identiques au n°1.
15] Rivière des tribunes (2ème passage)
Hauteur 1.00 m - Largeur 5.50 m.
Obstacle déjà franchi (n°5). La difficulté est identique, mais les chevaux ont déjà franchi 14 obstacles et à la mi-parcours, la fatigue commence à se faire sentir.
16] Haie du pavillon (2ème passage)
Hauteur 1.10 m - Largeur 2.60 m. Obstacle dont les caractéristiques sont identiques au n°6.
Passage sur la piste extérieure
17] Petit Open-Ditch (2ème passage)
Hauteur 1.30 m - Largeur 3.15 m.
Situé au tournant d’Auteuil, cet obstacle est composé de trois épaisseurs de haies de bruyère synthétique que précède une barrière blanche. le jockey doit impérativement bien négocier le virage pour aborder l’obstacle dans les meilleures conditions.
18] Butte en terre
Longueur 42 m - Haie d’appel 0.80 m - Haie de sortie 1.00 m.
Cette butte, encadrée par des haies de troènes, est un passage à priori sans souci, mais le cheval peut montrer des signes de fatigue et manquer d’élan.
19] Rail Ditch and Fence ou Juge de Paix
Hauteur 1.60 m – Largeur 4.10 m.
Après la Butte en Terre, les chevaux courent à nouveau sur 300 m de plat avant d’aborder l’obstacle le plus difficile du parcours, constitué par une fosse de 2 mètres de large et une haie d’1.60 m de haut et 1.50 m d’épaisseur en bruyère naturelle. Le Rail Ditch and Fence participe au « mythe » d’Auteuil car il est vraiment le plus imposant de tous ces obstacles. Le jockey doit porter toute son attention à sa monture pour aborder ce géant. Le franchissement exige un bond de 5 mètres pour lequel il faut allier puissance et vitesse C’est l’obstacle stratégique du parcours (d’où son surnom de Juge de Paix) à partir duquel le rythme de la course s’accélère, chacun joue sa course et les tactiques se révèlent.
20] Le Moyen Open-Ditch
Hauteur 1.40 m - Largeur 3.70 m.
Les chevaux ont encore les jambes et le souffle coupés que s’impose déjà un autre « monstre ». À l’instar du Gros Open Ditch, une double haie de troènes encadre une haie de bruyère naturelle, ce qui donne un aspect bicolore à l’Obstacle. L’effort est important pour franchir cet obstacle considéré par les jockeys, à ce stade du parcours, comme l’un des plus éprouvants d’autant plus qu’il n’autorise
21] Haie
Hauteur 1.10 m - Largeur 2.60 m.
Obstacle déjà franchi (n°12).
22] Double Barrière
Hauteur 1.65 m - Largeur 1.70 m.
(3ème passage toujours corde à gauche). Obstacle déjà franchi (n° 2 et n° 13).
23] Dernière Haie
Hauteur 1.10 m - Largeur 2.60 m.
C’est le dernier obstacle avant le franchir la ligne d’arrivée, à l’issue de 5.800 m et du franchissement de 23 obstacles. La chute menace jusqu’à cette ultime étape apparemment sans difficulté.
C’est à l"issue de ces 23 obstacles sur un parcours long de 5800 mètres que le vainqueur du Grand Steeple Chase de Paris est désigné.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8080567]
I am not sure I understand your point. Go at 50 seconds of your video, you will see how they jump the big fences see how these bigger fences are jumped. The white gates are probably anywhere between 70 cm to 1m. The horses, in my opinion, barely jump 1m10.[/QUOTE]
Nissen also said (The Horse, Aug 2014): “I think every generation has to use Thoroughbred stallions, if they don’t do it, the Thoroughbred influence will go back and back and back. The thinking of Mr Evain was if we have 50% in each horse and we cross, we always have 50%, I think that is a dream but it didn’t happen. We see in the Holsteiner population, if we have periods of five or six years without Thoroughbred then you can see that the mares and the foals become more heavy, and we need always the influence of the Thoroughbred.”
[QUOTE=Elles;8080580]
This horse is by a TB sire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoVyEy48jt8[/QUOTE]
And a PERFECT example of why we don’t want to use them today. No canter , scoped out at this height , no elasticity , and barely enough capacity to clear the last oxer.
Thanks Elles !
[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8080596]
Nissen also said (The Horse, Aug 2014): “I think every generation has to use Thoroughbred stallions, if they don’t do it, the Thoroughbred influence will go back and back and back. The thinking of Mr Evain was if we have 50% in each horse and we cross, we always have 50%, I think that is a dream but it didn’t happen. We see in the Holsteiner population, if we have periods of five or six years without Thoroughbred then you can see that the mares and the foals become more heavy, and we need always the influence of the Thoroughbred.”[/QUOTE]
And this is his opinion. Most breeders in Holstein fortunately don’t share his opinion and they are in control of what’s being produced.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8080567]
I am not sure I understand your point. Go at 50 seconds of your video, you will see how they jump the big fences see how these bigger fences are jumped. The white gates are probably anywhere between 70 cm to 1m. The horses, in my opinion, barely jump 1m10.[/QUOTE]
If you go to the video of the 2007 Gran Steeple de Paris, the fence heights and widths are given along the way. The water jump is 1.35 meters high and 5.5 meters wide. One jump is 1.70, another is 1.65. I may be misremembering the exact heights, but my memory is close. There are quite a few 1.40 and 1.30 meter jumps as well.
There are some big jumps on that course, and it’s also well over three miles long; TB Heritage says it’s 3.5 miles long.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8080607]
And this is his opinion. Most breeders in Holstein fortunately don’t share his opinion and they are in control of what’s being produced.[/QUOTE]
Gee, he’s been breeding director of the Holsteiner Association for the past 26 years–you’d think he’d know what he was talking about. If so many breeders disagree with him, why is he still breeding director?
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8080607]
And this is his opinion. Most breeders in Holstein fortunately don’t share his opinion and they are in control of what’s being produced.[/QUOTE]
Gee, he’s been breeding director of the Holsteiner Association for the past 26 years–you’d think he’d know what he was talking about. If so many breeders disagree with him, why is he still breeding director?
i think Eles example is a poor example perod- I dont think it represents how a xx moves at all- short and choppy?
[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8080635]
Gee, he’s been breeding director of the Holsteiner Association for the past 26 years–you’d think he’d know what he was talking about. If so many breeders disagree with him, why is he still breeding director?[/QUOTE]
He can only express his opinion to the breeders. He can’t force the breeders into breeding something they don’t want.
They are in control of what is being bred ,not him.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8080625]
If you go to the video of the 2007 Gran Steeple de Paris, the fence heights and widths are given along the way. The water jump is 1.35 meters high and 5.5 meters wide. One jump is 1.70, another is 1.65. I may be misremembering the exact heights, but my memory is close. There are quite a few 1.40 and 1.30 meter jumps as well.
There are some big jumps on that course, and it’s also well over three miles long; TB Heritage says it’s 3.5 miles long.[/QUOTE]
With regards tpo steeplechase, just watch a video of the race. The horses just runs through every brush. Nowhere do they jump anything close to a meter fourty. It is still a great deal of effort over a long distance, but on a pure showjumping point of view, there is nothing realy excpetional we can get only from those numbers.
If you look at the video Elles shared earlyer, around 50 seconds from the beginning, you will see exactly how the bigger jumps are jumped in steeplechases. You can easily guestimate that they have to jump no more than 1m10, 1m20 on a generous day.
[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8080518]
All in all, you don’t seem to be a basher, although I was a little miffed at your agreement with Bayhawk’s statement that TBs couldn’t compete consistently in anything except racing. Then again, that led to my foray into eventing stats, which was fun (really).
Interesting to hear about you using a TB. I’m a TB fan (duh), but my senior broodmare is in foal to a WB (Ironman), due last of May. So it seems that at least 2 of us are not straight “party line” breeders! Like I said, a good horse is a good horse.[/QUOTE]
He didn’t say they couldn’t compete, he said they weren’t winning consistently against the WBs in the Olympic disciplines in recent years. Hard to disagree with the facts.
Good luck with your foal. 
Ironman is from the Midwest and I have seen him compete many times. I’ve also seen many foals. They have been very pretty with amazing temperaments. Perfect for their ammy owners to bring along!
I used my TB mare to produce a colt with her refined phenotype, work ethic, agility, and stamina (hoping he inherited her x-factor and soundness). I am using him on a very powerful, old-style WB who could use those traits. My goal is a filly, but so far I have two colts. They look promising, although I suspect one will end up in the hunter ring… we shall see.
[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8080862]
He didn’t say they couldn’t compete, he said they weren’t winning consistently against the WBs in the Olympic disciplines in recent years. Hard to disagree with the facts.
Good luck with your foal. Ironman is from the Midwest and I have seen him compete many times. I’ve also seen many foals. They have been very pretty with amazing temperaments. Perfect for their ammy owners to bring along!
I used my TB mare to produce a colt with her refined phenotype, work ethic, agility, and stamina (hoping he inherited her x-factor and soundness). I am using him on a very powerful, old-style WB who could use those traits. My goal is a filly, but so far I have two colts. They look promising, although I suspect one will end up in the hunter ring… we shall see. :)[/QUOTE]
The facts are that very few jumper riders are looking for TBs anymore, opting to get the made horse from Europe instead.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8080625]
If you go to the video of the 2007 Gran Steeple de Paris, the fence heights and widths are given along the way. The water jump is 1.35 meters high and 5.5 meters wide. One jump is 1.70, another is 1.65. I may be misremembering the exact heights, but my memory is close. There are quite a few 1.40 and 1.30 meter jumps as well.
There are some big jumps on that course, and it’s also well over three miles long; TB Heritage says it’s 3.5 miles long.[/QUOTE]
In timber races the entire fence is solid. In the Maryland Hunt Cup the jumps are nearly 1.5m.
And like I’ve said before, when I went to watch the Olympics in Atlanta the brush was 6’, very stiff and most of the horses were sailing right over the top of it. Back in '96, when eventing was still long format and there were a lot of pure TBs at the top in eventing.
I’m thinking some posters here have never watched the Grand National Steeplechase.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8080879]
In timber races the entire fence is solid. In the Maryland Hunt Cup the jumps are nearly 1.5m. [/QUOTE]
And there are 22 of them…and the race is 4 miles long–YIKES! Those are some amazing horses!
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8080879]
In timber races the entire fence is solid. In the Maryland Hunt Cup the jumps are nearly 1.5m.
And like I’ve said before, when I went to watch the Olympics in Atlanta the brush was 6’, very stiff and most of the horses were sailing right over the top of it. Back in '96, when eventing was still long format and there were a lot of pure TBs at the top in eventing.
I’m thinking some posters here have never watched the Grand National Steeplechase.[/QUOTE]
To sum it up, Eventing courses and Timber races are longer and bigger than olympic showjumping GP courses?
Not only have we seen the Grand National, but I pointed out, on a video shared by Elles, to the exact moments where the horses jumped 1m10 or so through the allegedly 1m65 fence.
