It’s almost hilarious the way some people are insisting that TBs can’t jump big fences.
Seems to me they have a lot to learn.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8080903]
To sum it up, Eventing courses and Timber races are longer and bigger than olympic showjumping GP courses?
Not only have we seen the Grand National, but I pointed out, on a video shared by Elles, to the exact moments where the horses jumped 1m10 or so through the allegedly 1m65 fence.[/QUOTE]
I guess you missed videos of the horses jumping up over the fences then. :lol:
It’s there, just look. Some horses jump through, some jump up and over. Also depends on how late in the race the jump is.
Anyway, if you’re talking about the steeplechase she linked to on the last page, that’s not the Grand National.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfNpAewK4m4
That is the Grand National. All through the fences.
In your post Nbre 529 you clearly said that the Timber races (22 fences up to 1m50_ and the Eventing courses (over 6 feet) are higher and longer than the Olympic showjumping courses. Is that realy what you said?
[QUOTE=Cumano;8080938]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfNpAewK4m4
That is the Grand National. All through the fences.
In your post Nbre 529 you clearly said that the Timber races (22 fences up to 1m50_ and the Eventing courses (over 6 feet) are higher and longer than the Olympic showjumping courses. Is that realy what you said?[/QUOTE]
No, that’s what YOU said, in post 531. All I posted were facts about the Maryland Hunt Cup and what I remember/ witnessed of the steeplechase portion of Olympic eventing in '96. Could be I’m not remembering the height of the brush correctly; I am going from what I remember being told. Including the brush those steeplecase fences were very big. Clearly the eventing and racing steeplechase courses are longer than Olympic show jumping courses.
[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8080862]
He didn’t say they couldn’t compete, he said they weren’t winning consistently against the WBs in the Olympic disciplines in recent years. Hard to disagree with the facts. [/QUOTE]
I guess it’s just a matter of how you interpret the facts–holding 6 places out of the top 20 for eventing IN THE WORLD, and being one of the top 2 studbooks, seems pretty consistent to me.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8080938]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfNpAewK4m4
That is the Grand National. All through the fences.[/QUOTE]
I would love to know what the height of those fences was after all the horses jumped them. It was like watching waves in the ocean break as they were going over.
I will say, it takes more guts on the parts of both horse and rider than I could ever muster to participate in that sport!
[QUOTE=ynl063w;8080985]
I would love to know what the height of those fences was after all the horses jumped them. It was like watching waves in the ocean break as they were going over.
I will say, it takes more guts on the parts of both horse and rider than I could ever muster to participate in that sport![/QUOTE]
The fences are anywhere between 4 1/2 and 5 feet. I have read the hights somewhere, I could probably find it again.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8081029]
The fences are anywhere between 4 1/2 and 5 feet. I have read the hights somewhere, I could probably find it again.[/QUOTE]
That’s when they build the course, before the race starts right? I’m talking about measuring them AFTER the horses jump them. You can clearly see in the video that a lot of brush is falling. The jumps are nowhere near the same height after the horses jump them compared to before.
It’s impressive to watch, but there’s no way those horses are jumping OVER the brush.
[QUOTE=ynl063w;8081043]
That’s when they build the course, before the race starts right? I’m talking about measuring them AFTER the horses jump them. You can clearly see in the video that a lot of brush is falling. The jumps are nowhere near the same height after the horses jump them compared to before.
It’s impressive to watch, but there’s no way those horses are jumping OVER the brush.[/QUOTE]
There’s a little over a foot of brush. The fences are between 4 feet 6" and 5 feet 2". I can clearly see some of the horses jumping OVER the brush, but whatever…
Just a little info about jump racing for those of you who haven’t had an opportunity to watch it. Jumps with brush are meant to be brushed through and are usually jumped in a flat style. At least in the US faster horses tend to race in these races. Here these are called hurdle races and the horses who race in them are often referred to as hurdlers or hurdle horses.
Horses who are too slow to be hurdle horses are often moved into timber racing where the fences are solid. Obviously, nobody brushes through solid fences.
In the US the Maryland Hunt Cup is the most challenging timber race. The current largest jump on the course is #6 which is also jumped as #12. It’s 4’9", but the take off is slightly down hill making it at least 5’. So in timber racing horses have both terrain and other horses to deal with when jumping.
Also, timber and hurdle horses tend to jump flat when racing because it saves time but if you ask them they can crack their backs. They tend to be both smart and tractable so perhaps you can see why it’s so tempting to imagine one of these elite horses in the show ring or at least positively influencing show horse breeding. Not that I want to see them there! I love racing and like to see them running and jumping.
Well for sure you wont see any warm bloods competing over those courses!
(Use to be you could get national hunt papers for “grade bred” horses to run over jumps.)
[QUOTE=omare;8081244]
Well for sure you wont see any warm bloods competing over those courses!
(Use to be you could get national hunt papers for “grade bred” horses to run over jumps.)[/QUOTE]
Actually in France particularly, but also in most of the rest of the racing, non pure TBs are allowed to compete in both flat and jumps racing. The French, in fact, are now breeding very high percentage TB non-pure horses to jump race with their TBs. They used to be registered as SF, but there is now a new studbook (AQPS–other than pure blood) especially for those horses. French bred jumps racers, both TB and AQPS, are doing quite well in the UK and Ireland.
Between 1921 and 1936, the hardest steeplechase in the world, the Pardubice steeplechase, was won 9 times by East Prussian horses. In other words, Trakehners.
In the USA, sanctioned races no longer to my knowledge allow non JC registered horses. They use to allow national hunt papered horses. This might be because sanctioned races will run at the race tracks (i.e. betting) on occassion (Saratoga, Delaware Park) and have to meet those standards (especially horse ID rules). I think you can still run non JC registered horses at the point to points. Somehow I cannot see a WB running in the GN or the Md Hunt Cup unless they are in essence 7/8 plus xx.
This has been a very long thread which started on the subject of what I consider to be an advancement at the Holsteiner Verband.
Warmbloods aside and TBs aside. Breeding for sport is becoming more and more difficult as we’re still relying on “old” bloodlines to support the production of modern day sport horses.
Bring it back to the OP. The decision of the HV is monumental. It’s a more liberal approach and acknowledgement of the horses that come from foundation lines who’s blood resonates still today. With that, the HV is constantly seeking the stallions to support an ever changing sport. The sport of show jumping for example requires horses of speed, tenacity and scope. The horses who are winning, win for several reasons. They win because they have have the scope for 1.60m over courses that demand stamina and power i.e… World Championship level. They win because they are quick in technique, don’t over jump and turn fast while hanging onto the momentum… These horses win the indoors and classes built for this type of technique. Overall we need horses who fit in to three categories in show jumping; Fast and furious, powerful and methodical and a combination of both.
As a breeder, which do you choose? Personally one should breed for all three and it all comes down to the mare you have. Today’s stallions have a tougher job because they are not looked upon as foundation sires because of the powerful legacies behind them in their pedigrees. As a stallion owner, despite what performance accomplishments he has, he must produce in order for him to be remembered. More often than not, he is one or the other and rarely both.
There is always room for improvement. Does it mean we need to revert back to TB blood to support the sport? We have to take that one step at time. Do we watch and fall prey to the hot shot? Yes. If we throw in an old ingredient like the TB stallions, will they lay down enough today as opposed to tomorrow? We shall see.
IMO we need to take more time to study our mare base and decide from there who they are bred to. To be more responsible in research and education and be on the cutting edge. I believe we are in a transitional stage and the factoids being submitted in this thread are all valid. No stone should be left unturned. That being said, it’s never a mistake to trust the tried and true.
Very nicely said HyperionStudLLC!!
Well, he is an approved stallion. http://daten2.verwaltungsportal.de/dateien/seitengenerator/danthes_h_flyer_deckanzeige_a_5.jpg
So the studbooks must have seen some good in this horse.
He seems to be the best offspring out of this mare and the only one by a Thoroughbred stallion:
http://www.horsetelex.de/horses/progeny/503370
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8080601]
And a PERFECT example of why we don’t want to use them today. No canter , scoped out at this height , no elasticity , and barely enough capacity to clear the last oxer.
Thanks Elles ![/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8080865]
The facts are that very few jumper riders are looking for TBs anymore, opting to get the made horse from Europe instead.[/QUOTE]
That’s OK, these two already have riders.
There are many who grew up on TBs and still love that ride. Unlike my WB foals, I’m not breeding this cross for the market. I just really love a good TB, happen to own one, and wanted to see if I could keep the best traits while adding more power. Too soon to tell if my little dream is going to bomb, but I’m not worried that I’m going to be stuck with two beautiful, athletic horses standing in my backyard.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8080601]
And a PERFECT example of why we don’t want to use them today. No canter , scoped out at this height , no elasticity , and barely enough capacity to clear the last oxer.
Thanks Elles ![/QUOTE]
Very nice comment 
he might not have the qualities you desire in your breeding programme but he is probably more successful then any of your horses. So I guess he has some tiny qualities… He got pretty far in the Hamburg Derby (farther then some other big names) I had the pleasure to watch him there.
When the dam of Danthes H was bred to a 1.60 m high sj stallion, the results was a 1.30 m sj:
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/503644?levels=6
