New decision in Holstein

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;8082641]
"Is there any kind of objective data on the effect of a TB sire/dam on the jumping ability of the offspring? "
The answer to your question is “no”
But you can look at the the WBFSH’s rankings, I went until the horse ranked number 300, and I couldn’t find a TB sire and and only a couple of TB as dam sire. http://www.wbfsh.org/files/September_Jumping_horse_final.pdf
It’s also due to the small number of TB sire used by the breeders around the world, which in turn is probably due to their observation of the low jumping quality of the F1’s.
I’m not a breeder but I buy horses at age 3 with a very good success rate and I must say that during the last 25 years the TB stallions did not produce top performers with any consistency.
Breeders acknowledge the fact that TB of today are bred for speed, precocity and no concern for soundness because the vast majority of TBs stop performing at age 3.[/QUOTE]

Do you have any idea how many top jumper mares went to TB stallions (of which there are vanishingly few stood for sport, for reasons other than “probably due to their observation of the low jumping quality of the F1’s”)? If a TB doesn’t look to be a promising race sire he is gelded over 99% of the time.

[Elles]

Supershorty, if your horse is not such a big deal, why did people in Germany discuss your horse?
http://www.horse-gate-forum.com/showthread.php?72419-XX-Stute-Grand-Prix-Jumper

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=supershorty628;8082649]
Interestingly, I had the same observation as Bayhawk when I watched the Thermal million dollar class - it struck me as totally my mare’s type of course.

It’s really easy to look back at videos of the TBs back in the day and try to use them as examples of high performance animals that would do really well today - because they were successful for that type of course. But, to be honest, that’s not the type of course that you see much today.

Today’s courses are for a much more specialized animal that can get right to the base of a jump, curl around it, and power over it. My mare is very similar to PNWJumper’s guy - she can jump a huge fence all day long, but she will always prefer to leave from the gap, and teaching her to be able to jump from the base was a long and difficult process, which I wasn’t totally successful in. Even now, I can feel like I’m getting her to the jump deep, but when you look at her hoof prints, she leaves from the same gap every time (you could argue that this is due to a lack of skill on my part, I guess). I don’t do the huge classes, but I suspect if I did, we could have issues with rails at very upright, wide oxers.

You’d be hard-pressed to find people who are more enamored with their TBs than PNWJumper and I are - but I think we both know their limitations and feel them when we’re on course. I just don’t think that the TB today is the BEST at everything. There are, of course, some exceptional animals out there, but for today’s course designs, those horses are anomalies.

I don’t know Bayhawk personally, but I do know what he does and really respect that. If I were looking for another horse to do the big classes with, I would welcome his input (and would probably seek him out for advice… if that would be okay) because as much as I love a TB, statistically, the chances of getting a freak of nature jumper that is suitable for today’s GP ring are much greater if I go with a horse that is specialized for that purpose.

I don’t think anyone is saying that TBs are awful horses - they’re great. But they can’t be the best at everything, and it’s not reasonable to expect them to be or to expect people at the top of the sport to use them when today’s courses require a specialist type of animal that in a TB, is unusual, while in a warmblood, is much more common.

Just my humble opinion.[/QUOTE]

Supershorty, this thread has to do with Verbands opening up more opportunities to use TB blood, and Verband directors looking for more TB blood all of the time.

If more TBs than a very few were bred for jumping we wouldn’t have this conundrum. I do believe that.

Have you ridden many warmbloods? They are not always the best for a small person. I would think you’d want a warmblood with a lot of blood for the forwardness and sensitivity.

I thought I saw your mare get some deep spots and come out fine, but I could be completely wrong and will go back to see some of your videos again. She does look like she’s a “I’ll take care of this myself, thanks” type. The TB personality can be both a blessing and a curse.

[SnicklefritzG]

My point about Bayhawk is that he is resorting to name calling. I mentioned that there are people who have their own opinions and goals when it comes to breeding horses and that’s fine. Just like people choose to be religious, not religious, democrat vs, republican, and a range of options in between. It is fine to have opinions, but to resort to name calling is not. That’s the kind of thing that needs to stop. In addition to this kind of thing:

“This statement is nothing short of outlandish and is a crystal clear indicator of your lack of knowledge. What is your deal ? Do you have to be heard even when you’re dead wrong ? Unbelievable !”

There are more productive ways to have conversations about breeding goals, etc. without resorting to the type of language he uses.

I think there have been some very informative posts about advantages and disadvantages of using TB’s, that is when people go into the type of detail that you and supershorty did, but I think we can do without the hyperbole from certain other folks.

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;8082544]
Bayhawk has nothing against TBs in sport and I think you’re taking his comments the wrong way, Snicklefritz. Given a scopey elastic TB, he would be the first to call it so. Pull out the breeding component and he is much more neutral, IMO, about breed and critical instead of conformation/temperament. He has no issues with TBs in sport, and I’ve had conversations IRL with him about my TB, about whom he’s been nothing but kind and complimentary (though yes, mindful of his weaknesses). Recognizing a good horse is much easier in some ways than producing one.

And if I’m breeding for that freak of nature jumper, where am I going to put my money? Unlikely that you’d pick the TB for which there’s no jumping history (even if the horse in front of you is good). Much easier and safer to rely on a horse who has 1.60m after 1.60m jumper in his or her background. Certainly seems like it would improve the odds, no?

Again, this is a very different type of analysis than simply evaluating the horse in front of you. No one at any point has argued the fact that there are GREAT TBs out there. And I’ve said over and over again that while I love my guy he certainly wasn’t bred to jump and he’s one of those odd anomalies that I wouldn’t want to try to breed (he certainly wasn’t what the breeder wanted or expected).[/QUOTE]

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8082066]
Is there any kind of objective data on the effect of a TB sire/dam on the jumping ability of the offspring? [/QUOTE]

Yes, there is such objective data – at least for the stallions. Many of the Verbands publish breeding indices for the stallions used in their breeding populations, including many of the TB stallions. And the breeding indices include assessments of jumping ability in the free jumping chute. These indices inform the opinions that I and others share.

I’m trying to get my hands on the results of a more general statistical analysis of the overall impact of outside stallions by breed on the Hanoverian population. For example, the results I’ve seen show what each of the breeds/breeding populations (TBs, Holsteiners, SF, etc.) have (or have not) contributed to the Hanoverian population in a format similar to the breeding values of individual stallions.

[grayarabpony]

I’m just always amazed how people are gone after on here when they say they wish more TBs are used in jumper and dressage breeding.

[Elles]

Yes, I am also vey amazed about the response of people with regard to TB.
I can expect it from people in Holland because we hardly have any TB’s but I thought that in America, with all the knowledge of TB’s and experience with TB’s it would be different.

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8082307]
He’s mostly from dressage lines though. I would think that would give a lot of jumper breeders pause. And like I said he doesn’t display some of the qualities I would look for if adding blood.

In any case someone needs to update the info on the ATA site. It is the first thing that comes up when you google “Hirtentanz stallion”.[/QUOTE]

Just for the sake of a “friendly” argument, why would a horse with many, many generations of horses bred to be riding (sport) horses, be more of a breeding gamble than an xx horse with generations of speed only breeding behind him?

Trakehners have been always bred for riding horse qualities, TBs have not. Like you have said, very few stallions will EVER produce 1.6 jumpers, so in my mind if you start with one that at least has riding horse qualities, you are going to be stacking the odds in your favor. I have no connection to Hirtentanz, but he himself is doing very well and from what little research I have done he seems to be producing well too.

I’m guessing that anyone interested in breeding to him are going to talk to his owner and look up his results, but yes, hopefully the ATA site will get updated.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Elles;8082718]
Yes, I am also vey amazed about the response of people with regard to TB.
I can expect it from people in Holland because we hardly have any TB’s but I thought that in America, with all the knowledge of TB’s and experience with TB’s it would be different.[/QUOTE]

Many of the warmblood breeders don’t have very much knowledge and experience of TBs though, and how much variation there is within the breed. At least not from what I’ve seen on here.

They also don’t want to comb through all of the horses at the track. There’d need to be connections there and there aren’t. The racing world and the jumping world are far apart now that people want to buy made jumpers.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8082725]
Just for the sake of a “friendly” argument, why would a horse with many, many generations of horses bred to be riding (sport) horses, be more of a breeding gamble than an xx horse with generations of speed only breeding behind him?

Trakehners have been always bred for riding horse qualities, TBs have not. Like you have said, very few stallions will EVER produce 1.6 jumpers, so in my mind if you start with one that at least has riding horse qualities, you are going to be stacking the odds in your favor. I have no connection to Hirtentanz, but he himself is doing very well and from what little research I have done he seems to be producing well too.

I’m guessing that anyone interested in breeding to him are going to talk to his owner and look up his results, but yes, hopefully the ATA site will get updated.[/QUOTE]

Have you ridden many TBs? They can make EXCELLENT riding horses. They are not all hot and crazy. Many are perfectly ammy friendly. They have been bred to work as hard as they can and they have an amazing work ethic. They are sensitive, forward, and more athletic than your average horse.

Why would I breed a horse with generations of dressage horses behind him like Hirtentanz for a jumper, for that matter.

You asked an “honest” question and I gave you an honest answer. You appear not to like it, if your repeated attempts to explain to me why I am wrong because I don’t agree with you are any clue. I have already explained TWICE why I wouldn’t want to use him. If you don’t like my answer too bad.

[Elles]

In Holland quite a lot of people seem to be sad that the past is the past. They are thinking that the Gelderlander horse of the past, before a lot of TB stallions were used in Holland, was the best horse one can think of but now these horses are almost gone. Also a lot of people think it is a good thing that the horses of the past have been modernized.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ4NzeLaUorXVb-D1Qx0rsQ/feed
Zep had this mare in his pedigree: http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/12193
Still people dream of times gone by when they look at his videos.

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=Elles;8082718]
Yes, I am also vey amazed about the response of people with regard to TB.
I can expect it from people in Holland because we hardly have any TB’s but I thought that in America, with all the knowledge of TB’s and experience with TB’s it would be different.[/QUOTE]

I don’t want to be disrespectful to any breed as there are good and bad in all of them. But I am one US breeder who did try to make Sport Horses using TBs, 30 years ago. My thing was Eventing and I was sure the TBs were the way to go. My experiences were not good. That is how my family came to buy the stallion Meisterwind. And once I sat on that horse there was no going back for me. My family was never independently wealthy so we had to breed horses that people would buy.

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=Elles;8082718]
Yes, I am also vey amazed about the response of people with regard to TB.
I can expect it from people in Holland because we hardly have any TB’s but I thought that in America, with all the knowledge of TB’s and experience with TB’s it would be different.[/QUOTE]

I don’t want to be disrespectful to any breed as there are good and bad in all of them. But I am one US breeder who did try to make Sport Horses using TBs, 30 years ago. My thing was Eventing and I was sure the TBs were the way to go. My experiences were not good. That is how my family came to buy the stallion Meisterwind. And once I sat on that horse there was no going back for me. My family was never independently wealthy so we had to breed horses that people would buy.

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8082735]
Have you ridden many TBs? They can make EXCELLENT riding horses. They are not all hot and crazy. Many are perfectly ammy friendly. They have been bred to work as hard as they can and they have an amazing work ethic. They are sensitive, forward, and more athletic than your average horse.

Why would I breed a horse with generations of dressage horses behind him like Hirtentanz for a jumper, for that matter.

You asked an “honest” question and I gave you an honest answer. You appear not to like it, if your repeated attempts to explain to me why I am wrong because I don’t agree with you are any clue. I have already explained TWICE why I wouldn’t want to use him. If you don’t like my answer too bad.[/QUOTE]

I have worked with and ridden many many TBs both as race horses and as Sport Horses and still work with students that ride them today. We also bring along our own young horses from our own program. It isn’t hard to see which are more rideable and suitable for Sport.

[Elles]

Quite a lot of people in Holland are rather negative about Trakehners.
It is funny how some people really like a certain type of horse while others really do not like that type of horse.

[andy.smaga]

[QUOTE=Elles;8082771]
Quite a lot of people in Holland are rather negative about Trakehners.
It is funny how some people really like a certain type of horse while others really do not like that type of horse.[/QUOTE]
Hyperion gave a good analysis of the horses able to clear 1.60 courses with consistency (you can understand why some people really like a certain type of horse while others really do not like that type of horse) here is part of his post :
“The sport of show jumping for example requires horses of speed, tenacity and scope. The horses who are winning, win for several reasons. They win because they have have the scope for 1.60m over courses that demand stamina and power i.e… World Championship level. They win because they are quick in technique, don’t over jump and turn fast while hanging onto the momentum… These horses win the indoors and classes built for this type of technique. Overall we need horses who fit in to three categories in show jumping; Fast and furious, powerful and methodical and a combination of both.”

[supershorty628]

[QUOTE=Elles;8082656]
Supershorty, if your horse is not such a big deal, why did people in Germany discuss your horse?
http://www.horse-gate-forum.com/showthread.php?72419-XX-Stute-Grand-Prix-Jumper[/QUOTE]

I have no idea. But it’s cool to see the old pictures of her ancestors… thanks for posting that.

I know pretty much nothing about breeding, but I’m not sure that this decision is really going to make much of a difference when it comes to the TB being used for sport horses - because there aren’t TB studs who have the performance record to warrant breeding to them.

I suspect if there were and they had a tendency to throw extraordinarily talented offspring, breeders like Cumano and Bayhawk would use them. But I don’t know what I’m talking about when it comes to this, so I’m going to shut up and just keep reading what those who know more say!

(GAP, I don’t usually post videos where we punch out rails but if you watch my mare’s back end really carefully, you’ll see that she always pushes off from the same spot, even if it looks or sounds like I got her there deeper).

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8082567]
PNWjumper, How I would love to be able to be as clear and concise as you are![/QUOTE]

Me also ! Even though she did disagree with me ! LOL !

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=supershorty628;8082649]
Interestingly, I had the same observation as Bayhawk when I watched the Thermal million dollar class - it struck me as totally my mare’s type of course.

It’s really easy to look back at videos of the TBs back in the day and try to use them as examples of high performance animals that would do really well today - because they were successful for that type of course. But, to be honest, that’s not the type of course that you see much today.

Today’s courses are for a much more specialized animal that can get right to the base of a jump, curl around it, and power over it. My mare is very similar to PNWJumper’s guy - she can jump a huge fence all day long, but she will always prefer to leave from the gap, and teaching her to be able to jump from the base was a long and difficult process, which I wasn’t totally successful in. Even now, I can feel like I’m getting her to the jump deep, but when you look at her hoof prints, she leaves from the same gap every time (you could argue that this is due to a lack of skill on my part, I guess). I don’t do the huge classes, but I suspect if I did, we could have issues with rails at very upright, wide oxers.

You’d be hard-pressed to find people who are more enamored with their TBs than PNWJumper and I are - but I think we both know their limitations and feel them when we’re on course. I just don’t think that the TB today is the BEST at everything. There are, of course, some exceptional animals out there, but for today’s course designs, those horses are anomalies.

I don’t know Bayhawk personally, but I do know what he does and really respect that. If I were looking for another horse to do the big classes with, I would welcome his input (and would probably seek him out for advice… if that would be okay) because as much as I love a TB, statistically, the chances of getting a freak of nature jumper that is suitable for today’s GP ring are much greater if I go with a horse that is specialized for that purpose.

I don’t think anyone is saying that TBs are awful horses - they’re great. But they can’t be the best at everything, and it’s not reasonable to expect them to be or to expect people at the top of the sport to use them when today’s courses require a specialist type of animal that in a TB, is unusual, while in a warmblood, is much more common.

Just my humble opinion.[/QUOTE]

Great post Supershorty ! Anytime you want to talk jumping horses…TB or otherwise , just yell !

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8082667]
My point about Bayhawk is that he is resorting to name calling. I mentioned that there are people who have their own opinions and goals when it comes to breeding horses and that’s fine. Just like people choose to be religious, not religious, democrat vs, republican, and a range of options in between. It is fine to have opinions, but to resort to name calling is not. That’s the kind of thing that needs to stop. In addition to this kind of thing:

“This statement is nothing short of outlandish and is a crystal clear indicator of your lack of knowledge. What is your deal ? Do you have to be heard even when you’re dead wrong ? Unbelievable !”

There are more productive ways to have conversations about breeding goals, etc. without resorting to the type of language he uses.

I think there have been some very informative posts about advantages and disadvantages of using TB’s, that is when people go into the type of detail that you and supershorty did, but I think we can do without the hyperbole from certain other folks.[/QUOTE]

I ask you now for the second time. When did I call someone names ? When ?

Also , I can speak in any manner , tone , or style I wish. I’ve told you before…if you don’t like my tone or style then by all means don’t read my posts ,respond to my posts , or include me in your posts. Thank you !