New decision in Holstein

[vineyridge]

Cumano, you say the WB didn’t need the jump from the TB because it already had a massive amount of jump. Where was this jump exhibited? Weren’t non TB ancestors of WBs carriage horses, farm horses, and general saddle horses? Other than Traks, did they foxhunt over fences? Did they race over fences? How do you know they had a massive jump before they brought in TBs which did foxhunt, race over fences, and show jump back in the days of yore. The Germans didn’t start purpose breeding for sport until the late 1950s; the French about two decades earlier, but the French base had massive amounts of TB from the very beginning. They were famous for their Anglo-Normands (TB+Normand), their AAs (Anglo-Arab) and their Demi-Sang (Half Blood).

This is an interesting article on Warmbloods today in eventing. It recognizes that the sport had to change before the usual WBs could be competitive.
http://www.horsesinternational.com/articles/warmblood-thoroughbred-perfect-marriage/ One of the questions was if the Germans pushed the changes to benefit their horses, and the answer was “Of course.”

[stoicfish]

The Holsteiner horses are mainly disposing of a great jumping potential and willingness. After World War I the cavalry regiments disappeared. Thanks to the fast development of rural equitation the horses became more sporty. At that time Holsteiner horses were discovered as jumpers. With their enormous muscle power and the unshakeable loyalty and never ending eagerness the former “carrossiers” jumped into the top of German showjumping. We only want to mention Egly, in 1935 winner of the renowned Hamburg jumping Derby, Nordland under Marten von Barnekow, Olympic team champion in 1936 and winner of the Hamburg Derby in 1938, as well as Tora by Capenor, the Olympic individual champion of Berlin. After the total breakdown in 1945 nearly nothing had remained – except a great number of horses. Soon a great number of horseshows was shooting up, and again Holsteiner horses started their success. The fi rst Hamburg jumping Derby in 1949 was won by Käthe Schmidt-Metzger, a lady from Elmshorn, on the Holsteiner Fenek by Fasan. One year later Fritz Thiedemann won the sought-after oak garland with Loretto by Lombard.

Not saying they did not benefit from the 4 Tb’s that were a huge influence, just saying there was jumping ability before.

Also some of those famous stallions did not do as well with other mare bases. The mares were very important to the final equation.
And Traks were not the only ones that were “sport bred” before WW2. They were infantry horses which were very athletic.

AND anyone that has actually lived on a farm realizes you did not have pets or just riding horses in those days. When they said these horses also worked the fields…of course they did. Only the very rich could afford to have pets. And the countries needed a large base of horses to use for war time but that could earn their keep in the mean time.
But they were purpose bred for Calvary purposes. Not to be confused with horses that the state did not take an interest in, and have a breeding program for.

You do not have the majority of horses sitting around in stalls on a farm.
Most older breeds had “other” jobs.

[stoicfish]

http://www.showjumpingnostalgia.com/?tag=meteor
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10213539

The horses found in Meteor pedigree are common to the best jumpers. He was bred to jump, even at that time.
Of course the Tb improved on a horse like this, it took the very special Tb’s added to this pedigree type to produce the modern Holsteiner.

I agree with outwest, about questioning whether there is a need for additional blood to a breed that already has the properties from the Tb that are needed.
People seem to think genetics spontaneously reverts, not understanding that natural population genetics doesn’t apply.

[zipperfoot]

Nice post, drkarins!

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8085183]
Not saying they did not benefit from the 4 Tb’s that were a huge influence, just saying there was jumping ability before.

Also some of those famous stallions did not do as well with other mare bases. The mares were very important to the final equation.
And Traks were not the only ones that were “sport bred” before WW2. They were infantry horses which were very athletic.

AND anyone that has actually lived on a farm realizes you did not have pets or just riding horses in those days. When they said these horses also worked the fields…of course they did. Only the very rich could afford to have pets. And the countries needed a large base of horses to use for war time but that could earn their keep in the mean time.
But they were purpose bred for Calvary purposes. Not to be confused with horses that the state did not take an interest in, and have a breeding program for.

You do not have the majority of horses sitting around in stalls on a farm.
Most older breeds had “other” jobs.[/QUOTE]

I’m glad you showed it to Viney so I didn’t have to.

There is some great information being posted here !

[Elles]

Berichtje voor de Nederlandse dame die mij gisteren avond nog een derde berichtje stuurde.
Je berichtenbox zit vol en ik heb meerdere malen geprobeerd nog een berichtje terug te sturen, maar dat lukte niet.
Ik wilde zeggen dat je volledig gelijk hebt! Je bent een stuk slimmer dan ik ben :D.

[omare]

I thought there was a pause post WWII when the tractor came in making the horse obsolete–causing a shift in the focus of what they were to be used for–or if to be used at all in the future-leading me to assume they were not used so much for riding but for farm work.Riding was more of a post WWII recovery invention.

“Two years ago we had a party – it was 440 years that this farm was in the family – always with horses,” Harm tells me. “Here they used to work with horses always. They had to work very hard, the ground here is very special. If you try to plough one hour too late, then the ground is hard like cement. The horses had to work very hard.”

“In 1950 came the first tractor, and the mares went to the butcher – they no longer needed horses! But my father, Rheder Thormählen was interested in horses – after the war he was an international showjumper, and he dealt a lot of horses, this was his hobby. I don’t remember it myself, but Alwyn Schockemöhle told me, my father was one of the biggest dealers in Europe. His hobby was to buy international showjumpers, famous mares who were Grand Prix showjumpers, and 40/50 years later, comes the result from those famous mares. Even at that time, those mares were very expensive. We only breed for jumping on this farm.”
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/09/the-holsteiner-part-1/

[foursocks]

I am not a breeder, I am a rider, but I have long been interested in this subject. I have a TB and I have a WB, and I feel like the two of them exemplify many of the good and bad stereotypes of both sides. It is really interesting to go from one to the other because they have entirely different strengths and weaknesses.

My TB has great scope but loves XC, tolerates stadium, and wins the dressage if he is relaxed, so he events. As someone mentioned can be typical amongst TBs he likes to stand off the fences, not jump from the base. He is sensitive and requires a very particular, tactful ride, and I have never reached the bottom of his stamina. He is built along lovely, big, classic lines and is at his very best and happiest galloping XC. I tried show jumping with him but the jump offs made him nervous and he would lose his natural carefulness and fling his legs around, so eventing is his thing now.

My WB has super jumping lines, top and bottom. I can jump him from nearly underneath the fence and he will go up and over without an issue. Like my TB he has wonderful suspension, but he is much easier to get to sit- I had to teach my TB that, but my WB is built for it. He is also lazy and needs his engine monitored fairly consistently- if I could change anything about him I would interject more blood closer up in his pedigree. He has very little until several generations back and I think I pay for it in effort. On the other hand, he is incredibly, superbly athletic, has a very good mind, and loves to jump. I don’t have to have long, intense conversations with him as I do with my TB when he gets nervous because my WB doesn’t really get nervous. He’s a good egg and even when he’s being naughty (he’s only 6) it’s easy to get him back on track.

Strengths and weaknesses- my horses display a lot of the ones stereotypical of their types. My WB would make a terrible event horse- retraining him to jump flatter across the big XC tables and such like a good event horse would be stupid and a waste of his talent, but it comes naturally to my TB. I wouldn’t trade either of them, and each has great value in his preferred niche.

[Mistysmom]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8085217]
http://www.showjumpingnostalgia.com/?tag=meteor
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10213539

The horses found in Meteor pedigree are common to the best jumpers. He was bred to jump, even at that time.
Of course the Tb improved on a horse like this, it took the very special Tb’s added to this pedigree type to produce the modern Holsteiner.

I agree with outwest, about questioning whether there is a need for additional blood to a breed that already has the properties from the Tb that are needed.
People seem to think genetics spontaneously reverts, not understanding that natural population genetics doesn’t apply.[/QUOTE]

I have to agree that the jump was already present in the breed population and that the genetics currently present will not spontaneously revert. The Holsteiner will continue to develop through selective breeding and possibly the infusion of quality selected TB’s. It will very interesting to see how the breed develops further over time…

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=omare;8085507]
I thought there was a pause post WWII when the tractor came in making the horse obsolete–causing a shift in the focus of what they were to be used for–or if to be used at all in the future-leading me to assume they were not used so much for riding but for farm work.Riding was more of a post WWII recovery invention.

“Two years ago we had a party – it was 440 years that this farm was in the family – always with horses,” Harm tells me. “Here they used to work with horses always. They had to work very hard, the ground here is very special. If you try to plough one hour too late, then the ground is hard like cement. The horses had to work very hard.”

“In 1950 came the first tractor, and the mares went to the butcher – they no longer needed horses! But my father, Rheder Thormählen was interested in horses – after the war he was an international showjumper, and he dealt a lot of horses, this was his hobby. I don’t remember it myself, but Alwyn Schockemöhle told me, my father was one of the biggest dealers in Europe. His hobby was to buy international showjumpers, famous mares who were Grand Prix showjumpers, and 40/50 years later, comes the result from those famous mares. Even at that time, those mares were very expensive. We only breed for jumping on this farm.”
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/09/the-holsteiner-part-1/[/QUOTE]

Right.

But the Wb’s that we have in the pedigree’s of our horses today were not just any horses. They were as of 1800’s, chosen to be apart of that verband. They were selected for their traits that made them a better horse for the Calvary.
This would be hugely important for the country, to have a group of horses that were ready and suitable for war. So they formed the registries, which would have been the equivalent of R&D for modern defence.
If you go back in many Wb’s horses pedigree to the beginning, you don’t see a ton of random horses but the same horses over and over again. They hand picked the local mares for their ability and continually brought in stallions and selected stallions to purpose breed a better war horse.
The fact that during that process they were used for practical purposes, is irrelevant to what they were bred for.
The royal Traks were eaten and used to pull carts during WW2 but you don’t say they were bred as meat horses.
I think it is hard for people to imagine the context of the Wb development when they think of horses in todays standards. Many of the horses at that time would have been like today’s army Reserves, trained (bred) up and ready to go but with a day time job. So when there was a war, there were suitable horses for that county.
The horses in the pedigree’s of todays horses were not random farm horses that they final took notice of after 1930. The pedigree’s of horses at that time were very consolidated and line bred. http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=234828
The horses in the above pedigree are very typical of Holsteiners at that time. Most are heavily line bred to horses like Achill, Ethelbert, Tobias, etc. And if you check those horses, they are a high percentage of Tb or Tb foundation stock.
So even at the beginning of the 1900’s, the Holsteiner were already heavily influenced by Tb. In fact they just about always used a Tb sire at the beginning (1800).
The “breed” was always about 50%.

[WB_Mom]

Not a breeder here, but a Holsteiner owner. I have been reading this thread and learning a lot.
Thought I would post this question/statement, and I may be really off base, but here goes.
WB’s as we know today did evolve over time from horses not specifically bred for sport. I am not knowledgable about exactly this timeline, but I think as the breeding goals changed, so did the use of some types of horses.
Obviously the TB made great contributions to the registry AT THAT TIME.
Is it possible that the use of the TB really is a function of that time period? Where the breeding was then, and not where it is today?
Just food for thought!

[Barn_Dirt]

[QUOTE=WB Mom;8086079]
Is it possible that the use of the TB really is a function of that time period? Where the breeding was then, and not where it is today?
Just food for thought![/QUOTE]

I think that is exactly the point people like Bayhawk have been trying to make all along :yes:

[Ammy]

Yes! Bahawk’s manner is poor, but what he says is correct.

I used to love TBs, but they are now mere shadows of their former selves.

[Mistysmom]

[QUOTE=WB Mom;8086079]
Not a breeder here, but a Holsteiner owner. I have been reading this thread and learning a lot.
Thought I would post this question/statement, and I may be really off base, but here goes.
WB’s as we know today did evolve over time from horses not specifically bred for sport. I am not knowledgable about exactly this timeline, but I think as the breeding goals changed, so did the use of some types of horses.
Obviously the TB made great contributions to the registry AT THAT TIME.
Is it possible that the use of the TB really is a function of that time period? Where the breeding was then, and not where it is today?
Just food for thought![/QUOTE]

Yes and I think that this is what some of the other Holsteiner breeders have been saying from the start…

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=WB Mom;8086079]
Not a breeder here, but a Holsteiner owner. I have been reading this thread and learning a lot.
Thought I would post this question/statement, and I may be really off base, but here goes.
WB’s as we know today did evolve over time from horses not specifically bred for sport. I am not knowledgable about exactly this timeline, but I think as the breeding goals changed, so did the use of some types of horses.
Obviously the TB made great contributions to the registry AT THAT TIME.
Is it possible that the use of the TB really is a function of that time period? Where the breeding was then, and not where it is today?
Just food for thought![/QUOTE]

What’s confusing to me is that the Holsteiner Verband officials seem to think that TB blood is needed today, but the actual breeders say no. Why would the HV officials advocate something that would be detrimental? Also, are the HV officials not also breeders?

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Ammy;8086114]
I used to love TBs, but they are now mere shadows of their former selves.[/QUOTE]

I know if I tell my TBs this, they’re all going to be very depressed…except the chestnut filly–she’ll be mad. Sparky the Wonder Horse will probably spend the rest of the day wondering where his former self went…!

Sorry…couldn’t resist!

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8086248]
What’s confusing to me is that the Holsteiner Verband officials seem to think that TB blood is needed today, but the actual breeders say no. Why would the HV officials advocate something that would be detrimental? Also, are the HV officials not also breeders?[/QUOTE]

The RIGHT type of blood.
This conversation get so very polarized but there is room for use of the right type of Tb stallion on some mares as they not a completely uniform population.
While I think the top jumper stock has most of what it needs, there are other horses that could be improved by the right type of Tb.
This is shown with the Hanoverians and the introduction of L.C.
Regardless of what people say about Wb’s being mutts (obviously someone that doesn’t actually look at the pedigrees), most Wb have a narrower pedigree base and they can always benefit from new genetics that brings the right characteristics in. They can share across the registries but there is still room for the right type of outside horse to improve some of the mares.
But that is the one in many thousand of Tb’s (or Arab) that will improve the breeding stock.
I really think they opened it up to help with the search. What if someone finds a Tb stallion that crosses really well, that wasn’t presented as a stallion to Holsteiner Verband.
Not every mare is bred for the top of the sport, some need improvement. Stallion lines can spring out of lesser known lines when the right nick comes along. That is genetics.

And of course, eventing! That is a market for some breeders and their stock.
For my level, I like a Tb up close for what it brings.
If I was breeding a mare to try for a 1.6m horse, using a Tb would be a big gamble, if the mare had that genetic potential. I would be using a proven formula and probably a proven jumper sire.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8084731]
Zipperfoot, nothing in my post was personnal to you. I re read my post And i understand you may have understood otherwise. When I say “You”, I mean people arguing against my point of view, in general, in this post. Just read it back, without feeling treatened, and keeping in mind I was not trying to be snarky or agressive. I am just explaining my position. We do not discount or discredit anyone or anything. I just explain how I feel the TB improved the WB, and how it could improve now and in the future. I also express what I feel are it slimitations, and how I feel their are other solutions to the use of the TB.

Quite honnestly, their is only one person I qualified as ignorant and it is GAP. NOt because she/he did not have the same opinion as me, nore because I believe what other said about him/her. I don’t know him or her at all. BUt in this post, he/she said so many things that clearly showed that he/she did not have a clue what he/she is talking about when it come to breeding or sport. They’re have been many other posters here that did not agree with me, and I think the arguments, although sometimes heated, were realy constructive.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, Cumano, but you are really full of it. To say that I don’t know anything about sport or bloodlines is ridiculous. It’s inaccurate and insulting. That would be 3 people – you, bayhawk, and Kytzeke – who have said things about me that aren’t true.

But believe what you want to believe. I don’t care, although I am sick of these bids for my attention. Knock it off. I wish you and a few others didn’t need to make these threads all about you.

[Ammy]

I know if I tell my TBs this, they’re all going to be very depressed…except the chestnut filly–she’ll be mad. Sparky the Wonder Horse will probably spend the rest of the day wondering where his former self went…!

Sorry…couldn’t resist!

Hey, if they do something impressive, let us know! There are always exceptions to the rule.

The fact is TBs used to dominate these sports, but now even the best of them can’t seem to win. Part of it is how sports changed. Part is how poorly they are bred now. Downhill, low neck set, such light bone, etc.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8084934]
The problem with these threads is that the TB enthusiasts take everything so personally, and base their opinions that TBs are better than WBs on feelings and anecdotal evidence rather than facts[/QUOTE]

BS. Scores and scores of riders will tell you the same thing.

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8084934]
Or they point out why a TB is great for the everyday female rider, when the discussions are about international level competition, where the gender of the rider is not something that generally matters.[/QUOTE]

A female international rider would appreciate a sensitive horse just like anybody else. Besides, most horses bred to be top jumpers don’t end up being top jumpers. They end up in ammy hands because they don’t have the talent to jump top end courses. How many people on here have bred international level jumpers, besides Wang Chung bred by Tom Reed? http://www.morningside-stud.com/WangChungM2S.html

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8084934]
If TBs were superior to WBs for international competition, people would be using them. And if someone thinks it’s a matter of a marketing problem, start marketing the TBs and F1s and make yourself some money.[/QUOTE]

People aren’t going to use them if they aren’t being marketed as a made jumper. But how European purpose bred horses took over has been discussed ad nauseum on this board too, and it not just due to a supposed lack of talent on the part of the Thoroughbred. Those of us who know Thoroughbreds know this.

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8084934]
This is such a great point that bears repeating. There is not, nor has there ever been, a conspiracy against TBs. [/QUOTE]

I never said there was a “conspiracy” against TBs. I think American breeders dropped the ball by not using the talented TBs available to them. If you don’t think courses are built to suit warmbloods (especially in eventing), I’ve got 50 acres of swampland I’d like to sell you…

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8084934]
This is simply not true, and it never has been on any of these threads as long as I’ve been reading them (for years). Not one person on this thread has made any such statements about TBs; in fact, those who breed WBs and participate here have gone out of their way to acknowledge how crucially important the TB has been in the development of today’s warmblood. Pointing out that the TB is not needed today IN THE SAME WAY that it has been in the past is in no way discounting and discrediting the TB’s ability, past or present. It has also been acknowledged that there is a current need, and there will be a future need, for TBs in WB breeding, and it has been explained WHY the WB breeders are not AT THIS TIME on board with using TBs in their breeding programs. My understanding from the posts here is that the leaders of the registries (verbands, or whatever) are apparently looking ahead to the time when the breeders WILL want to use the TB, and are doing what is necessary today to ensure that the best TBs are available when that time comes.

Don’t take it personally, it’s not about you.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think the last para you quoted was mine, but I’ll answer anyway. WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN READING? :lol: I think your assessment is completely off. I have to wonder, where do you think these TBs that will be used in the future come from, anyway? The Verband directors can’t really do anything if breeders won’t cooperate with them.