New decision in Holstein

[Elles]

Bayhawk based on what kind of information do you say that horses by a TB sire or dam do not jump as well as the horses that do not have a TB parent?
Based on the freejump? What do you use to compare the two groups with please?
Just for my information.

This is a Trakehner and not a Holsteiner but based on what would you compare this horse with other horses?
https://www.google.com/search?q=Cavallieri+xx+"First+Flight+Spirit"+almox+prints&hl=en&gbv=2&tbas=0&oq=&gs_l=
http://www.horsetelex.de/horses/pedigree/588268

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Elles;8051696]
Bayhawk based on what kind of information do you say that horses by a TB sire or dam do not jump as well as the horses that do not have a TB parent?
Based on the freejump? What do you use to compare the two groups with please?
Just for my information.

This is a Trakehner and not a Holsteiner but based on what would you compare this horse with other horses?
https://www.google.com/search?q=Cavallieri+xx+"First+Flight+Spirit"+almox+prints&hl=en&gbv=2&tbas=0&oq=&gs_l=
http://www.horsetelex.de/horses/pedigree/588268[/QUOTE]

I base it off what I see in the foal. How is it different from the mother ? 9 times out of 10 the foal doesn’t move or jump as well as the mother. This is what most others are seeing as well , hence “let the neighbor do it” , hence why TB Stallion are getting very few mares all over Europe.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=Elles;8051696]
Bayhawk based on what kind of information do you say that horses by a TB sire or dam do not jump as well as the horses that do not have a TB parent? Based on the freejump? What do you use to compare the two groups with please? Just for my information.[/QUOTE]

I don’t speak for Bayhawk, but the objective data regarding free jumping heritability speaks for itself as has already been posted at length elsewhere in this “TB debate.” Here’s a snipet from a post of mine regarding Heraldik, arguably one of the best contemporary TB stallions for show jumping.

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;7628283]
With regard to Heraldik and his breeding value of 114 for jumping (as published by the Hanoverians in 2014), he only provided a modest improvement to the jump of his offspring. If he were not a TB, he would likely not have been accepted into the Hanoverian jumper breeding program with this score. In comparison, the top 5 jumping stallions licensed for Hanover (and with sufficient offspring to compute breeding values) are:

Contendro - 158 (160 would be 3 standard deviations from the mean - something like the 99.87th percentile)
Calido - 156
Stolzenburg - 156
Stakkato - 155
Perigueux - 152

In simple terms based on the statistics of breeding values, Heraldik gets a C+/B- for his ability to produce jump in relation to the grade of A+ of the top five. I suggest that this accompanied by the fact that he failed to reliably improve type is why he did not gain much acceptance by the jumper breeders in Hanover. I can’t speak to his progeny in other studbooks.[/QUOTE]

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Elles;8051696]
Bayhawk based on what kind of information do you say that horses by a TB sire or dam do not jump as well as the horses that do not have a TB parent?
Based on the freejump? What do you use to compare the two groups with please?
Just for my information.

This is a Trakehner and not a Holsteiner but based on what would you compare this horse with other horses?
https://www.google.com/search?q=Cavallieri+xx+"First+Flight+Spirit"+almox+prints&hl=en&gbv=2&tbas=0&oq=&gs_l=
http://www.horsetelex.de/horses/pedigree/588268[/QUOTE]

Go to the world rankings and look at the top 5000 jumping horses in the world. This is a great way to see the blood lines that are getting the job done. A TB has the XX beside it. So it gives you the dam, sire and dam sire.
Very few, very few horses have a TB in the sire, dam or even dam sire.
That is the undeniable proof.

There are way more horses in that list that are 1/4 or 1/8 th up close. Several top horses in the past were 1/4.

http://www.wbfsh.org/files/September_Jumping_horse_final.pdf

In the past 30 years, Wbs have changed, they have been specialized for jumping. The best ones that are bred to jump, have the advantage of many years of selective breeding to do that job. Only the NH Tb’s are actually bred to jump. But they are not as suited to a SJ course or style.
I don’t know why people find this so hard to grasp. It isn’t insulting to Tb’s as they do not have the same advantage that a horse that has been bred for it has. To deny this is to deny the fact that selective breeding gets better results, which is an odd idea in a breeders forum. Tb race people select for speed and have the fastest horses in the world for their race style. It would be silly to say that we need to add Arabs to Tb’s and there are Arabs out there that could enhance the Tb race results. Even if there are some Arabs with qualities that could help.

There are a few Tb’s that people have found and bred and the stallions showed talent, to show respect to some of the Tb stallions out there. As good as they are, they did not either get the mares or their talent was not enough to put their offspring at the top.

[Elles]

But going back to the horse I mentioned. What is wrong with his free jumping?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLqI3ADT7QI

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Elles;8052160]
But going back to the horse I mentioned. What is wrong with his free jumping?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLqI3ADT7QI[/QUOTE]

Nice horse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6O6u8P3QA0
but both these video’s don’t change anything about how top horses are bred.

You got your answers. Giving examples from 30 years ago or the few talented Tb horses out there doesn’t change the rule.
I know a lady that faithfully competed Tb’s here in Alberta to respectable results. I see she has switched over to Wb’s probably because it is very hard to find “those” Tb’s that are even competitive at 1.4 or 1.5m.

[vineyridge]

He who controls the courses controls the horses who will do well. There was a cite in another thread in which Palacios, world renowned show jumping course designer, mentioned how much courses have changed in the past twenty years. And I read another article from a show jumper designer talking about the changes. That article, which I didn’t save, said that until twenty years or so, courses were designed with and for a 12’ stride. Now you often find 15’ or 8’ strides. The courses are much smaller and tighter, and that doesn’t favor horses who jump from speed. These course changes have been going on since the 1960s, per an old book on showjumping that I have by Count Toptani, and started in France to showcase the Selle Francais. Look at the difference between the Munich 1972 Olympic course and the London 2012 Olympic course, for example.

If you change the course, the horses will change as well.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8052173]
Nice horse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6O6u8P3QA0
but both these video’s don’t change anything about how top horses are bred.

You got your answers. Giving examples from 30 years ago or the few talented Tb horses out there doesn’t change the rule.
I know a lady that faithfully competed Tb’s here in Alberta to respectable results. I see she has switched over to Wb’s probably because it is very hard to find “those” Tb’s that are even competitive at 1.4 or 1.5m.[/QUOTE]

The use of Tb in jumper breeding been hashed over a million times on this forum, and has nothing to do with mule competitions.

If Americans were any good at show jumping breeding they would have used the talented TBs at their disposal. They did not and so not, so Europe and their warmblood breeding programs dominate.

Even using warmbloods it’s not as though American bred horses are burning up the results in international show jumping. Far from it.

[Elles]

Well there are many other warmblood stallions that do not have a TB parent that do not produce 1.60 m. jumper after 1.60 m. jumper.
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/75358 Most horses never go higher than Z (1.30 m.)or ZZ jumping (1.35 m.).

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=Elles;8052276]
Well there are many other warmblood stallions that do not have a TB parent that do not produce 1.60 m. jumper after 1.60 m. jumper.[/QUOTE]

Don’t use those stallions then.

[vineyridge]

The current place in sport horse breeding for TBs for competition horses AT THIS TIME is in eventing, not show jumping. And that’s because of the courses, both in eventing and in show jumping.

[omare]

I dont think we can blame courses-- as a "blood "ctype seems to be very desired and needed for the present courses–the beautiful Cumano/Berlin types lost time–Tequila under Edwina Tops Alexander strikes one as very much a quick hottish jumping bean-(xx type) and she wins but I dont think she has any xx close. I agree that horses that need to jump with the speed/quickness generating the jump are disadvantaged or need a ride where that energy and quickness can be captured, compressed and utlilzed. Certain riders seem to really click with that.

[SEPowell]

[QUOTE=Elles;8052160]
But going back to the horse I mentioned. What is wrong with his free jumping?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLqI3ADT7QI[/QUOTE]

I absolutely love the way he uses his hind legs. Cool horse.

[Elles]

http://www.eaap.org/Previous_Annual_Meetings/2006Antalya/Papers/H25.2_Langlois.pdf
For French saddle horses, predicting jumping ability in competition by a conformation exam is illusory. The accuracy can be improved by measuring gaits and free jumping, but the accuracy of the prediction remains low. Therefore we do not think that the current examination of 3-year-olds in breeding shows could replace the test of jumping aptitude in competition.

Not a lot of horses are being bred with the use of a TB and most of these are pointed at an eventing career. So it will never be found out if they have the pure show jumping ability. Because to know one would have to seriously train the horse like a showjumper.

[Elles]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8052319]
Don’t use those stallions then.[/QUOTE]

Well, having been born in Holland in 1969 and having grown up in Holland I know for certain that lots and lots of horse owners are not extremely competitive. So it very well possible that it is not the horses that are to blame. Not a lot of riders have jumped 1.60 m. courses in their lives. They are already very happy and proud if they are / have been able to jump the 1.30 m. courses.
It is the same with dressage. So many people do not have the money, the time, the will, the energy or other means to be really competitive.

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2015/03/the-new-dutch-breeding-values/

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=Elles;8052379]
http://www.eaap.org/Previous_Annual_Meetings/2006Antalya/Papers/H25.2_Langlois.pdf For French saddle horses, predicting jumping ability in competition by a conformation exam is illusory. The accuracy can be improved by measuring gaits and free jumping, but the accuracy of the prediction remains low. Therefore we do not think that the current examination of 3-year-olds in breeding shows could replace the test of jumping aptitude in competition. [/QUOTE]

“Its a huge mystery to me how anybody who sells horses can exist without access to some way to free jump the greenies. Heres the thing—you can get an idea of both scope and form much sooner than if you have to get them rideable over fences first, before you can test them, and how long you keep them, and what they are worth, is partly determined by what you see or don`t see in terms of innate talent.” - Denny Emerson
http://www.horsecollaborative.com/conformational-traits-of…/

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8052319]
Don’t use those stallions then.[/QUOTE]

THIS ^^^^ . This is why we don’t use TB stallions and this is why we dont use a lot of WB stallions just the same.

If you are trying to breed top sporthorses you should never use a stallion that hasn’t done it himself or has shown the ability to sire it.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8052482]
“Its a huge mystery to me how anybody who sells horses can exist without access to some way to free jump the greenies. Heres the thing—you can get an idea of both scope and form much sooner than if you have to get them rideable over fences first, before you can test them, and how long you keep them, and what they are worth, is partly determined by what you see or don`t see in terms of innate talent.” - Denny Emerson
http://www.horsecollaborative.com/conformational-traits-of…/[/QUOTE]

I think that a scientific study with population statistics and analysis of multiple factors is probably more accurate than Denny Emerson.

What the study says is that conformation, gaits, and free jumping of young horses are not very predictive of success in competition.

[D_BaldStockings]

interesting find in Poland -TB

http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1672683

His Damsire Jape has a pure TB gelding on the WBSF list #3009 Civis pg 159
http://www.wbfsh.org/files/September_Jumping_horse_final.pdf

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8052660]
I think that a scientific study with population statistics and analysis of multiple factors is probably more accurate than Denny Emerson.

What the study says is that conformation, gaits, and free jumping of young horses are not very predictive of success in competition.[/QUOTE]

This “scientific study” sounds impressive, but it has some major flaws, particularly given that the test variables can’t be isolated from a pretty major external variable that unquestionably impacts the results. Even so, the study says conformation has no bearing on competition results, and that gaits and free jumping have some bearing on competition results.