Agree with all of that, which is why I called him her young rider horse 
Totally agreed that Pia did a fabulous job producing him, and he did a fabulous job producing Cornelia!
3 Likes
It really doesn’t need to be that in depth for the purposes of what we’re discussing here. But hey, if you think this is akin to launching a rocket to the moon, be my guest.
1 Like
You are attempting to make connections using oversimplified assumptions. That is akin to disinformation. You want to show that dressage links to jumping efficacy. The data and the statistics already show that is not true.
The anecdotal components imply some connection but that is most likely due to increased strength and balance (due to self carriage) and better communication and acceptance of the aides when used correctly. But that has no correlation to jump faults. As has been noted, look at the hunters and jumper divisions. Very little real dressage (in terms of competitive dressage) is done test horses jump around cleanly and safely by the 1,000s.
9 Likes
And your last part is an anecdotal assumption too, because them not competing in dressage has no bearing on what they would score if they did. It’s an assumption on your part that those horses do not have dressage basics.
I’m not saying to correlate it to overall jumping prowess. It could be just a bad day for the pair. But if we know that an atrocious dressage score often correlates to a bad day, we can do something with that.
45 is not a hard score to achieve. The bar set is not too high.
Nothing about the current system prevents a rider from continuing to the next phase after a bombed test. No one is suggesting that, that I can see. So they can still go out and show their stuff - they just can’t use that event as a MER. That’s fair, IMO.
Again, we KNOW bad dressage does NOT equate to a bad day. I’m not sure what you are trying to then “prove” given that you now have rendered the necessity to look at dressage scores moot in your last post.
It’s totally possible! I have a bunch of 2019 results in Excel format because I was interested in these questions and had time to work on it in early 2020. The cleanup is time-consuming. A few of us were working on it back when this rule change was first proposed and discussed here (2022 New Rules Proposed - MERs Required to Move Up). Katherine Cooper and Rob Burke were made aware of what we were working on and we learned that they were going to ask Equiratings for data to get at some of the same questions. I’m not sure what the outcome of that was though.
4 Likes
I didn’t “prove” anything. The rule stands, so what you or I think ultimately doesn’t matter. Plus, with <1% of competitors scoring 45 or worse, the rule itself has such a small impact it will prove or disprove nothing.
2 Likes
I have a horse who was “caught out” by the new MERs. I have produced multiple horses by myself up the levels, from their first event to Prelim, Intermediate, and/or Advanced. I prefer to get mileage on my horses at lower levels through unrecognized HTs; being in FL, they are plentiful, economical, and up-to-standard (usually run over the exact same recognized courses). I might do two recognized T horse trials, some Prelim CTs, maybe unrec PTs, then move up to Prelim at a real horse trial. I school XC frequently (benefits of FL!), and make sure my horses are well-prepared before moving up.
But my “unrecognized HT” plan has bit me in the ass with my current OTTB. He was sort of on the back burner while I competed my stallion; schooling regularly, of course, but just a handful of schooling HTs as needed. He ran two of them at Training level in 2020. Spent time as a pony horse in 2021, ran some PT and Prelim CTs too. Did schooling jumpers (hosted by reputable venues) at 1.10 and 1.20m, as well as more unrec HT & CTs in 2022, and one Modified. He gets MUCH better, more balanced and rideable as the jumps get bigger. We did Preliminary at Rocking Horse in November 2022. It was bright and sunny when I got on for XC, and by fence 7 it was POURING rain, that made it difficult for me to hold a line to a skinny where we had a runout. I re-gathered my wet reins, jumped it fine the second time, and finished the course beautifully. I was mad at myself for not going clear, but honestly happy with my horse’s first time at the level (reminding myself that while all my other horses went clear at Prelim #1, I can’t ALWAYS expect perfection). He was rideable, confident, and balanced, and I looked forward to his next outing at the level, and tentatively planning for a 2-star in 2023.
Then Dec 1 came. And my horse who had just went Prelim three weeks ago, who was completely prepared for the level, was no longer eligible to do so. As a result, we went Modified at Dec Rocking Horse (MER), and needed 3 more MERs at Training or Modified before we could run Prelim again. I can attest that this isn’t much fun…now that he has spent quite a bit of time (all of 2022) schooling minimum 1.10 and lots of 1.20, he has minimal respect for Training/Modified level fences. I have had to work much, much harder between fences and on approach; and while we are certainly safe, it isn’t much fun for either of us. It is a significant added expense, and frankly unnecessary mileage on him (now 11yo) to chase MERs. But those are the rules, so that is what we must do.
I have also read much facebook chatter that “lifetime establishment” at a level has ended, and currently your “lifetime MERs” will expire after 4 years. I feel like that’s a bit of a slap in the face… that winning P3D in 2015, and all my Intermediate experience at events from 2016, including winning the Richland Park CCI2* (now considered 3*-L), are irrelevant, and I could be subject to the requirement of 6 MERs at Training/Mod before I could go prelim again. I think 6 MERs for a first-time-ever Prelim rider may be fair… but for someone who has ridden Prelim and above at over 50 events since 2001, not sure why I, as rider, would need 6 more Trainings to move a horse up.
Regarding the reduced MER 45 score in dressage… I was not a bit worried by that number at first. My horses may not win the dressage, but they all solidly average in the mid-to-low 30s. But then… I had to do a test in a covered arena last month, with two rings crammed together. My horse felt great in warmup, relaxed and obedient outside in the open. We got into the covered arena, his eyes bugged out and he was super tense, heavy, spooky, and the most difficult he has ever been to ride. He’s never been in an indoor arena, and I would not have expected him to react that way, but… horses. He scored a disappointing 42, and suddenly I respected that 45 isn’t a “gimme” to be achievable in all circumstances. (He went on to jump double clear, so we did get our MER)
Photo of the unqualified horse going Prelim in November. As others have said, it’s entirely possible to have non-MER rounds that are safe, educational, and confidence-building. And it’s entirely possible to have clear rounds that are terrifying and dangerous. Sometimes the score doesn’t tell the whole story.
25 Likes
You bring up a good point, and one that I have stewed over before.
There are a multitude of unrecognized competitions that use the same judges, same tracks, and same designers and TDs as the recognized (Warhorse in NC, Stableview Eventing Academy in SC, and Chatt Hills in GA come to mind). It is really a shame that results at these competitions are not counted towards MERs, especially since it would be mostly the Training and Modified runs.
I suppose it probably comes down to cost.
4 Likes
Reading EventerAJ’s response is close to home. I do think the 4 year MER could be to make more money for recognized venues. If you are spending money at unrecognized venues to prep your horse, resting on your laurels so to speak, then you aren’t supporting the recognized sport. And you aren’t necessarily being held to the same standards. (ding ding ding, WRONG) Edited to If you have your lifetime MER done, you are good to go. The requirement for 4 MER now completed all in a four year period is needed to be qualified at the level. Then you are at the lifetime qualified at the level but if you haven’t competed in 12 months at that level you need one MER. Still ultimately makes money for recognized I would imagine.
Rider responsibility comes back to if you get an MER and you know it wasn’t to standard (terrifying and dangerous), it isn’t USEF’s responsibility to take that MER “away” it is yours. An MER is only an optic, a scale that can be quantified. And the dressage score at 45 or above, well, again, it’s just saying on that day, you weren’t playing to standard. Let it go and try again. Easier said than done.
There by the grace of God go I. This is such a different sport from the 80’s and 90’s and even 2000’s. I’ll keep playing in the sandbox the youngsters created.
3 Likes
Current MER rules
EV109 Loss of Qualifications
For certain levels, Horses and Athletes must meet qualifying requirements, which are detailed in Appendix 3.
Loss of these qualifications is outlined below and pertains to any combination of Federation and FEI Events.
- ESTABLISHMENT OF QUALIFICATION. When a Horse and/or Athlete obtains a Minimum Eligibility
Requirement (MER) at a level, they are “established” (i.e., qualified to compete) at that level. This
establishment does not expire; however, a Horse and/or Athlete who are established at a level but who have
not competed for over 12-months must achieve an MER at the next lowest height level to renew their
establishment at a level. - LOSS OF QUALIFICATION (Preliminary/CCI1* level and up)
Loss of qualification will occur when penalties have been assessed during the Cross-Country phase of
an Event as follows:
a. A Horse that is Eliminated, for Disobediences, three times within any 12-month period will
lose its qualification to compete at the highest level at which an Elimination occurs.
b. A Horse that Falls two times in any 12-month period will lose its qualification to compete at the highest
level at which a Fall occurs.
c. A Horse that incurs two consecutive Cross-Country Eliminations for Refusals, Dangerous Riding,
Horse Falls, or Athlete Falls will lose its qualification to compete at the highest level at which an
Elimination occurs.
d. An Athlete who falls from the same Horse three times in any 12-month period will cause the Horse
to lose its qualification to compete at the highest level at which a Fall occurs.
e. Any combination of three total occurrences as outlined in a., b., c., or d. above will result in loss of
qualification.
© USEF 2023 - 8
f. Having lost qualification, a Horse may be re-qualified by achieving two MERs at the next lower height
level within any 6-month period and no sooner than 1-month following the loss of qualification.
g. An Athlete who is penalized two times in any 12-month period for Dangerous Riding will lose their
qualification to compete at the highest level at which a penalty occurs.
h. Any combination of two total occurrences as outlined in e. and g. above will result in loss of qualification
for the Athlete.
i. Having lost qualification, an Athlete may be re-qualified by achieving two MERs at the next lower
height level within any 6-month period and no sooner than 10 days following the loss of qualification.
BOD 7/25/22 Effective 12/1/22 - At the Advanced, CCI4* and CCI5* levels, Athletes subject to the provisions of this rule may request, in writing,
to have their or their Horse’s loss of qualifications reviewed by an Ad Hoc of the Eventing Sport Committee.
This was my understanding of the rule, and makes complete sense. If you or your horse have been sitting idle for a year, it makes sense to start out at the lower level before moving up. This is reasonable common sense.
What is confusing to me is the new Prelim MER section makes it sound like your MERs are only good for 4 years.
RE: new Prelim MER section. Edited because there it is as I completely blew by it on first look. So I am thinking the rulebook supersedes the the 4 year rule. So I would think if you had all your MERs done, then only need to do one within twelve month period. But from now on, to get your MER you have to do them all in four years, like you can’t do one in 2022, 2 in 2023, 1 in 2025 and have lifetime MER at the level in 2025. That make sense?
APPENDIX 3 - PARTICIPATION IN HORSE TRIALS
All Minimum Eligibility Requirements (MER), except Classic Three-day Events, must be obtained within a 4-year period.
One MER must be obtained within 12 weeks of the Event for which it is needed when moving from one level to the next.
Classic Three-Day Events at the Preliminary, Modified, and Training levels, qualifying competitions must be completed
within a 24-month period of the start of the competition.
A competitor and/or a horse may be entered in a Horse Trial without having fulfilled the q
- LEVELS OF HORSE TRIALS AND EVENTS
All MER requirements for Modified, Preliminary, Intermediate, and Advanced levels (except Classic Three-day
Events), are required for Horses and Athletes to move from one level to the next. After obtaining an MER at the
Intro level or above horses and riders are established at the level. Horses and athletes having achieved an MER at
the level and have not competed at the level over twelve-months must achieve a MER at the next lowest height
level – see EV105.1.
3.1 BEGINNER NOVICE (B) - Open to competitors of any age, on horses four years of age and older.
3.2 NOVICE (N) - Open to competitors of any age, on horses four years of age or older.
3.3 TRAINING (T) - Open to competitors of any age, on horses four years of age or older.
3.4 MODIFIED (M) – Open to competitors of any age, on horses four years of age or older. The competitor must
have obtained an MER at two Horse Trials at the Training Level or higher.
3.5 PRELIMINARY § - Open to competitors from the beginning of the calendar year of their 14th birthday, on
horses five years of age or older. The competitor must have obtained an MER at six Horse Trials at the Training
Level or higher. The Horse must have obtained an MER at four Horse Trials at the Training Level or higher: One of
the four MERs must be as a combination. Athletes with more than 10 MERs at the Preliminary Level or higher are
exempt from one MER in combination.
I’m not magically exempt from a bad test. My late mare and I got a 53 (?) at an event because she tossed her head and flung a spit wad into her eye during one of the first movements. No recovery possible. 
She was one of the only double clears in the xc/jumping portions because of the horrendous muddy conditions that day.
We never scored above a 35 before or after that. But it should not have counted as a qualifier. Stuff happens.
1 Like
“…it was her desire to represent the Adult Amateur community in a much stronger way that Leslie realized it was time for her to step up into this new role.”
The USEA’s new president is really out there supposedly supporting the “adult amateur” in the sport. As an adult amateur who has a long history at both the low and upper levels I am already seeing the opposite and this is a great example. This is exactly the type of rule change–sold to us under the bogus guise of safety–that is a big FU to the adult amateur. They want you to fund the expense of the upper levels while making it harder and harder for the accomplished amateur to compete in those same levels. Even though it has nothing to “safety.”
I spent about 6 years riding at preliminary and intermediate and rode at the equivalent of today’s three star level. It made me as a horsewoman–and added something significant to my life that is beyond horses. It increased what I have and am willing to give back to my local horse community in both moral and financial support today years later.
I never won anything. I was almost always in the bottom third after dressage, but often moved into or close to winning a ribbon–even if it was a funky colored one. The harder the course the more likely that would happen. I had a perfect XC record for those 6 years. My classic 3-day horse had an absolute disdain for dressage, but he never had an unsafe moment on course.
Today’s required MERs would have likely prevented so much of what I accomplished. (Including being Long Listed.) It would have limited me either as an amateur on a budget or having a limited ability to travel with little children at home. Or in added pounding and miles and injuries on my horse that would have been added on to overcome some tense dressage rides.
It is so interesting to me that people here think I shouldn’t have had that experience. That somehow my presence brought down the prestige of the sport or some such garbage. That the fact that I was never in the hunt for a good ribbon–or wasn’t competitive–somehow meant I shouldn’t have been there at all.
I understand that the sport progresses, but this is not progress. It is elitism. I’s ugly, and it’s ugly in a way that eventing of all the English horse sports managed to avoid in the past.
23 Likes
Why not be good at dressage? Because you can’t afford a horse that ticks all the boxes. The SO’s most fun horse ever was affordable because he didn’t vet and he didn’t dressage. We got him to the point his dressage was quite good at home but as soon as he heard the loudspeaker at a show he went into racetrack mode. He never would have moved up from T if he needed a 45. He did dozens of P and I with clean safe XC and rarely had a rail, with an adult amateur OTR. When people talk about getting priced out of the sport there are many factors at play. I’m with the be tougher about previous XC record and more lenient about dressage scores. Not everyone is out to be competitive.
9 Likes
This. And if you can’t afford a horse that ticks all the boxes, by far the safest box not to tick is dressage.
15 Likes
I’m sorry guys, I’m just not buying it. Look at your region’s results - there are hardly ANY scores >45.
Maybe the judging has gotten easier since you all have done it?
But if your horse is regularly completely unrideable in dressage (which is what it would take to get a >45, and not a one off but consistently >45), but magically is “ok to go xc” I truly think you need to introspect on whether they really DO have the rideability to do today’s XC, which is a lot less about galloping and a lot more about technical questions - whether we like it or not, that’s the truth.
EDIT: I have no problem bitting up for XC, because that kind of adrenaline may not match well with a snaffle. But if the horse absolutely will not cooperate in a snaffle even in the sandbox, there’s a big training gap that needs to be addressed. All horses should be able to do basic flatwork in a snaffle.
12 Likes
Having to do dressage in a snaffle isn’t really the issue for most horses. If they are tense in a snaffle they will likely be tense in a double or gag too.
3 Likes
At BN-N sure, where the MERs are irrelevant.
I just went and looked at 2019-2021 results for Area 2 and 3 and within the first four hits I randomly clicked, found several 45+ scores at Training and above. One of the 2-star events I clicked had three competitors with a 40+ score after dressage, including a 46 after dressage that finished with no XC stops/refusals. These classes were not big, so having even one person score above a 40 is statistically significant.
Either Area 1’s riders aren’t as accurate or our judges are harder, but Area 1, while having fewer UL opportunities, had scores that skewed much higher. There were many 40+ scores, and several 45+ that finished with no XC refusals.
I don’t know if it is appropriate to post these rider names on COTH, but you can go to USEA and look up results pretty easily.
6 Likes
