New Tack Inspection Rule

[Cowgirl]

I don’t think tapping is the same as whipping, but there can be a definition. I have seen two people whip their horse through a test (hitting it with the whip hard enough that you could hear it and record it with a phone) every stride. Both horses had metabolic diseases and both horses eventually foundered and were euthanized. I think if they had gotten ejected from showing for the whipping, they might have been more motivated to explore the physical reasons why their horses were so lazy. Why even would you show a horse that had to be whipped that much?

Edited to add: both horses won year end awards (regional club) and one went to Finals. At championships, excessive spurring replaced the whipping.

[iberianfan]

My point, and I think @millerra, too, is that it’s too subjective. And already, whips are not even permitted at certain dressage competitions. You want to ban “abuse” as opposed to bit checking. Nobody here is in favor of abuse, but the rules need to be as objective as possible. And checking for particular equipment can be mostly objective.

That said, I have never seen a horse being soundly whipped every stride in a dressage show. I honestly do not believe the TD or judge would allow that to continue. The fact that these horses then made it to Regionals is moot. If the rider left spur marks, then report it to the TD!

[emeraldcity]

@Cowgirl

I don’t think tapping is the same as whipping, but there can be a definition.

You’d need some sort of impact meters on everyone’s whip to measure this though… this isn’t something you can measure visually in an objective way.

[Cowgirl]

I think you can. Dip their whips in chalk and see which horses have little spots and which are striped. (Oh that’s just a guess off the top of my head.) I think a judge can tell the difference between whipping and tapping.

[Cowgirl]

Ok, so let’s have some ethical rules. Story Time (again): a barn mate was highly rated for regionals (one of the ones whipping their metabolic horse through the show season). She went to big show that was preparation for championships and put bloody spur holes in the horse’s sides on warmup day. (Note: the spur holes may already have been there and been actively managed). A person who was then an “R” judge, now and “S” judge quietly pulled her aside after her warmup and told her about the bloody spur holes. Instead of leaving the horse at the show overnight, she brought the horse back to the barn and I happened to be there while she was bathing it. The sores were the size of a quarter. She told me the whole story and then was floating the idea of putting shoe polish in the spur holes. I asked her how she would like to have shoe polish put in an open sore on her.

Aside: This was not a person who was experience enough to know about shoe polish in spur holes, so someone gave her that idea.

She ended up going to the show and winning all her classes (good for her, although I thought that most of her rides bordered on abusive (with a coach) and the horse was always breathing very hard through the tests). She did not get caught by anyone for bloody spur holes.

Did that “R” have an ethical obligation to report the woman to the TDs so that the horse could be inspected the next day?

If not, I suggest the sport needs a more specific code of conduct.

Even though I get how you all want to be objective, raising qualifying scores has never been very good for the horses. Objectively, you’d think it would require people to be more prepared; in reality, it is creating some very hard riding. Second Story Time: Same “R” judge was training a horse for a client who had gold medal aspirations but wasn’t really a good enough rider for it, nor was the horse trained for it yet. Rider would do 100 revolutions of canter pirouettes. Daily. I watched a clinic where the rider was doing 100 revolutions of pirouettes (Maybe I am exaggerating, maybe it was only 20 revolutions one way, then 20 the other way, then a break, rinse repeat…etc.) with the “R” judge’s trainer and the horse was clearly lame. I asked the “R” why the horse was being ridden lame. She replied that the horse was just “very sore” because the rider had to learn and the horse had to learn so they had to do lots of pirouettes, every day. I honestly can’t remember if that rider got her gold medal but I do know that the horse was retired before the age of 20.

If this sport can’t figure out how to be humane and protect horses, it is a stupid and cruel sport.

[Knights_Mom]

The judge should have called her out or directed someone to.

Our obligation is to the horse or it should be in order for horse shows to survive.

[Cowgirl]

100%!!!

[iberianfan]

The bit check rules, however flawed, are one measurable way to make sure the bits are not harmful.

The examples you cite are one or two instances of cruelty. Overtraining at home cannot be governed by the USEF. And I am virtually certain bad riding and training exists in horse ownership everywhere. You cannot paint all of dressage by those examples. In my experience, which goes back a long way, the sport has come a long way, a long, long way, in treating horses with kindness and respect. Firmness, yes; cruelty, no.

I don’t know anyone who cares for their horses more than the dressage people I know. The most prominent equine vet in our area used to tell a joke about dressage riders being so in tune with their horses, they brought them in before they were lame. He didn’t just make that up.

[Knights_Mom]

Kisses and carrots NEVER make up for rough riding. I still see abusive training practices at shows. The more prestigious the competition, the more egregious the intentional pain.

[sascha]

@iberianfan

The most prominent equine vet in our area used to tell a joke about dressage riders being so in tune with their horses, they brought them in before they were lame.

Ha, yup. An acquaintance I had many years ago went through vet school. Their class was told when a dressage rider brings a horse to the uni because of lameness, the horse is lame. Doesn’t matter if you can see if with your bare eyes or not, the horse IS lame and it’s your job to find it.

[iberianfan]

I don’t believe I said that. My definition of horse care is far more than kisses and carrots.

If abuse is happening, propose a workable solution. Report it to the TD. It’s not just in dressage, and I personally believe dressage has less than other disciplines. And I think treatment at shows has changed dramatically in the last half century. Things are not perfect but I don’t think we need to throw out the baby with the bath water.

It’s been proven that dressage training keeps horses sound longer. There are many teenage horses showing in dressage. Not a lot of disciplines can say that. And, yes, we all know of one or two exceptions, but not multiples.

[CanteringCarrot]

@iberianfan

It’s been proven that dressage training keeps horses sound longer. There are many teenage horses showing in dressage. Not a lot of disciplines can say that. And, yes, we all know of one or two exceptions, but not multiples.

There are plenty of teenage horses in show jumping? Eventing?

I don’t disagree with many of the points that you are making, but I think your glasses are just a tad rose colored.

It’s hard though, because we are all passionate about the sport and going off of our own experiences. We shouldn’t discount the experiences of others or the fact that there is cruelty in the sport and it is more widespread than it should be.

I think the focus on equipment is fine, especially if it actually makes sense, but we do need to focus on the use of equipment too and actual treatment of the animal.

I don’t think anyone is intending to paint with a broad brush here or say that a majority of dressage riders are this way. It’s just that we do need to be aware of welfare issues and not just say, “Well, it’s better than it used to be” or “It’s come a long way” or “it’s a minority” because there is still much room for improvement and we cannot lose sight of that.

I think some also just don’t know or aren’t aware sometimes. I see quite a few things out there that aren’t kind to the horse, but the rider just doesn’t recognize it for various reasons. Their intent isn’t necessarily malicious, they just don’t know or don’t possess a certain level of consciousness.

[iberianfan]

You are absolutely correct. I think I was touchy about the post that said how awful the sport is. You are right: better than most is not good enough.

But change does not happen overnight, generally. And it’s hard to enact objective criteria.

And, it seems that big money talks,as in all areas of life.

[CanteringCarrot]

I completely agree regarding change and also money.

[SonnysMom]

Ummm…I am at a hunter barn. There are 31 horses. Of those there are 2 ponies that are still showing and are 20+years old. Yes tgey have stepped down but are still showing. There are a number of ones in their teens still showing. So these are multiples in one barn. I know multiple barns with multiple horses showing late in their teens in hunters.

[iberianfan]

I agree! I said not a lot of disciplines, not that there are no disciplines. I was thinking more along the lines of disciplines that push youngsters hard and fast and burn them out early. Mostly where money is involved.

[Knights_Mom]

I know barrel horses racing competitively in their late teens.

Scamper, 9 time world champion barrel horse, born in 1977 won every championship from 1984 to 1993 when he was 16 years old.

Abuse is everywhere and a TON is in dressage. Not even a month ago Helgstrand and his training stable undercover video which has people screaming, illustrates that.

Power & Paint, Andy, Blue Tongues, Gal etc are all reminders. And so so many more.

[fivestrideline]

@iberianfan

It’s been proven that dressage training keeps horses sound longer. There are many teenage horses showing in dressage. Not a lot of disciplines can say that.

Good dressage, to a certain level, is just basic gymnastic work that is certainly protective and beneficial to the horse. Upper level dressage is ridiculously demanding on the body and does a number on the hocks/SI/stifles/soft tissues supporting all of it.

Bad dressage, whether for competitive reasons or just uneducated and incorrect riding, is extremely detrimental to the horse.

I’ve known far more “old” foxhunters and h/j horses going around soundly than I have dressage horses. That doesn’t mean every dressage horse breaks down early, it just means I personally have seen the opposite. Plenty of old barrel horses too, much to some people’s surprise.

[Montanas_Girl]

I can name half a dozen cutting horses over the age of 20 who show on my local circuit. Last week I took a lesson on my trainer’s 25 year old cow horse stallion, who has been working since he was just under 2 years old.

Early work, done properly, doesn’t make horses less sound. The only research done on the subject suggests just the opposite. I don’t know what else science can do to make this old myth die.

[iberianfan]

Ok. I know of multiple GP dressage horses that were able to compete into their 20’s. And Olympic horses in their teens??? The Lippizans often perform into the 20’s. P

And I have good friends with cutting horses and they are often burnt out by 7 due to big bucks in futurities. Maybe good training early is healthy, but pushing fast and hard is what I mentioned.

I give. I am very aware of the Helgestrand video and the blue tongue. Y’all win. I just came back from riding my very abused, yet very sound, teenage horse. He goes around with a bounce in his step, his ears forward. In my neck of the woods, dressage is not abusive. But I am not going to argue any more. Clearly it’s the most abusive practice in the world. /s