New tests, symposium, curious as to your thoughts.

[anon55755751]

The point I was trying to make was closer to what MOR has said than what was assumed by lorilu, I promise. My interest in this subject, really, is that I would like for there to be a standard/ideal presented from the top down for what good quality training looks like on average-moving horses, precisely so that the average rider can set realistic expectations for what is achievable for them, and have something to aspire. Being rewarded with more competitive scores against fancier horses by de-emphasizing quality of gaits in judging, I believe, would have the secondary effect of bringing more such representations to the fore. Another advantageous effect may be expanding/maintaining interest in showing and raising the bar for the standard of training and riding required on the fancier horses (i.e., the things USDF is saying it wants to address with qualifying scores). I think it would also help low-level, and especially entry-level, people develop enough of an eye for quality training earlier to maybe help them avoid trainers/instructors who themselves aren’t particularly good.

My perspective here is coming from the experience of auditing and riding for BNTs in clinics, where the BNT looks at a very normal, maybe conformationally-challenged such as downhill, horse and says “you’re nowhere close to maxing out this horse’s capabilities, let’s take this to the next level,” whereas the local pro may have been satisfied with incremental improvements in test accuracy. I don’t think you need to be a BNT to be able to see this kind of potential, you just need to see a lot of examples of what it looks like when a normal horse is progressing up the levels with good training. Most of us outside of dressage hotspots in this country do not see this locally, which is why I’d love for it to be more integrated into top-down representations of “American dressage.”

@Silverbridge, thank you for your excellent post - this is one to read and reread for sure.

OP, sorry for knocking the thread off topic. My holiday is over now, so I’m resuming lurker status.

[atlatl]

@netg

Lots of snipping

Different judges have different opinions - and I have had some seem to hit me hard on gaits because her trot isn’t massive but she goes into the ring looking like it should be. Other just love her. Some judges score her canter and walk lower because the trot gave them a set opinion of her gaits. The ones who don’t prejudge all gaits consistently give her canter and medium walk 8s when it goes well.

How do you know the bolded text above to be true, especially for more than one judge? The methodology I was taught in the L program is to score each gait separately and then average the 3 numbers. I’ve seen horses with very nice trots and canters but a lateral walk get greatly reduced overall gait scores; literally 7.5,8,4 => 6.5 ish; more than one horse and more than one judge when I was scribing.

I had a previous trainer tell me something similar along the lines of my horse looking so much more capable than the test went so the judge must have been disappointed and dinged me harder because she was expecting more. Well, maybe but we certainly didn’t know for sure. I choose to believe I got dinged because I didn’t ride a very capable horse to show the best of his abilities.

@netg

…
Circling back to the start of this thread, though… what these videos strike home with is that even incorrect flash in individual movements is getting scored above correctly ridden movements much of the time. We don’t hear stress on how 8 movers also need to fix their halts and get the right amount of bend harped on like we do for average movers.

Many times, judges don’t give comments at all on scores 7 or higher. If it’s a long day and I’m scribing, that works for me! Frankly, unless you’re reading the score sheets of others you don’t know what’s being commented on. I went through last year’s tests and it looks like less than half of the movements where I scored above 6.5 have any comment.

I’ve only scribed one 10 in many years; it was given to a kid on a quarter pony on the entry. I still remember the judge’s comment: Very str8, active and square, hell give her a 10!

@netg

…Everyone should be doing those things, but because gaits for trot into and out of the halt and around the corner are also supposed to count, it’s the rare judge who truly gives that 8 or 9 for the halt because of what else is encompassed in the movement.

For the entry, the movement starts when you enter on CL, and most judges give a score just before you turn at C. The actual turn usually goes into the second movement (at C track left/right)

[gailbyrd]

@MysticOakRanch

Many of us “masochists” were around back in the days when most dressage riders were on “average” horses - when Warmbloods were a bit of a rarity, and they were a very different horse - a general purpose horse who came from carriage and work horse lines (please note, work horse does not mean draft horse, I’m not opening that line of discussion, I’m quite aware of Warmblood breeding). Many US riders were on Tbreds, Morgans, Anglo Arabians, Appendix QHs, and other “average” horses.

A much larger issue, discussed often here and throughout dressage-land - is how much USDF has lost touch with its grass roots membership, hence the falling numbers in both membership and shows. And your comment further illustrates why that is happening - because of the disdain toward the “average” dressage rider and their “average” horse.

So I respectfully disagree - I don’t see it as a superiority issue or a masochist issue, I see it as a major swing in the direction of the discipline that is leaving the vast majority of the membership behind.

IIRC, even back in the time before the influx of uber-moving warmbloods, scores for the ‘average’ american dressage horse (as listed above) were rarely in the high 60’s/lower 70’s. Which is where the scores should be (in the lower 60’s/high 50’s) for those types of horses. It has been mentioned above that gaits weren’t taken into as high account in the past as they are today, I would beg to disagree. Even the old masters, those who we revere today as the trainers of the trainers, those who were on the more ‘average’ horse (ie before our current, bred for dressage horses) weren’t getting the high scores of today. And I would content that is BECAUSE the standard the masters of old were looking for wasn’t being displayed by the horseflesh of their day. And why the breeding is moving toward that loose, uphill, fluid, suspension filled horse (with no tension) for those who really do take dressage competition at the higher levels seriously.

What I see as a bone of contention in this discussion, is what direction the USDF has taken in trying to support dressage in this country for those who wish to compete at the international level. And in doing so, the USDF is trying to show that American Dressage really does take dressage seriously and that our national level standards should rise as well.

That being said, the rider medals are STILL just 60%.

As to the test riding in the symposium, it was refreshing to see rider/horse combinations making less than 7/8 scores in different movements and being able to hear the feedback on why the lower scores were given. Who hasn’t had their horse be tense in certain areas of the ring, break a gait, fail to do accurate figures. Much more representative of most dressage tests at these levels on the regional level.

[pluvinel]

@gailbyrd

1. … And I would content that is BECAUSE the standard the masters of old were looking for wasn’t being displayed by the horseflesh of their day. And why the breeding is moving toward that loose, uphill, fluid, suspension filled horse (with no tension) for those who really do take dressage competition at the higher levels seriously.

2. What I see as a bone of contention in this discussion, is what direction the USDF has taken in trying to support dressage in this country for those who wish to compete at the international level. And in doing so, the USDF is trying to show that American Dressage really does take dressage seriously and that our national level standards should rise as well.

3. That being said, the rider medals are STILL just 60%.

…

1. The reason that “breeding is moving toward that loose, uphill, fluid, suspension filled horse” is because of the power of the marketing machine of the German WB breeders post-WWII to repurpose their breeding programs.

If you read the “old” books…eg., in the time where horses were used for the WORK of taking their riders someplace, be it to war or to town, or cross country…the desired quality in a horse was a horse that was comfortable for the rider. This is one of the reasons the gaited horses were used to traverse large land holdings.

2. I agree.

3. The writing is on the wall…the number is going up.

[gailbyrd]

@pluvinel

1. The reason that “breeding is moving toward that loose, uphill, fluid, suspension filled horse” is because of the power of the marketing machine of the German WB breeders post-WWII to repurpose their breeding programs.

Exactly, no one who trains for Dressage rides their horses for work.

IMHO, there is nothing like watching a racehorse on the track doing what they love best, running. There is nothing like watching a purpose-bred cutting horse do it’s job with cows. Watching an Arabian flying across the sand, which they can do all day, is breathtaking. And watching a purpose bred dressage horse execute all the movements in a dressage test, from the piaffe/passage tours to the canter pirouettes, to the zig-zag, trot half-pass and those beautiful extensions, what could be more beautiful.

To expect a racing-bred TB to perform with the same fluidity in a dressage test as a purpose-bred dressage horse is just as unfair as expecting a purpose-bred dressage horse to win a race against a racing-bred TB. Will there be individuals who can do it? Of course. But for the average purpose-bred horse, they were purpose-bred for a reason. And in competitions, the purpose-bred will usually come out on top in their discipline.

Western dressage IS a good thing for the US. There are a lot of non-dressage bred horses who do benefit from dressage training. But to perform the same movements with the same fluidity and up-hill nature expected from conventional/international dressage is not realistic and really unfair to the horse IMHO. Everyone loves a level playing field and western dressage gives the owners of these horses a place to show off their dressage training.

[BigMama1]

@gailbyrd

IIRC, even back in the time before the influx of uber-moving warmbloods, scores for the ‘average’ american dressage horse (as listed above) were rarely in the high 60’s/lower 70’s. Which is where the scores should be (in the lower 60’s/high 50’s) for those types of horses. It has been mentioned above that gaits weren’t taken into as high account in the past as they are today, I would beg to disagree. Even the old masters, those who we revere today as the trainers of the trainers, those who were on the more ‘average’ horse (ie before our current, bred for dressage horses) weren’t getting the high scores of today. And I would content that is BECAUSE the standard the masters of old were looking for wasn’t being displayed by the horseflesh of their day. And why the breeding is moving toward that loose, uphill, fluid, suspension filled horse (with no tension) for those who really do take dressage competition at the higher levels seriously.

What I see as a bone of contention in this discussion, is what direction the USDF has taken in trying to support dressage in this country for those who wish to compete at the international level. And in doing so, the USDF is trying to show that American Dressage really does take dressage seriously and that our national level standards should rise as well.

That being said, the rider medals are STILL just 60%.

As to the test riding in the symposium, it was refreshing to see rider/horse combinations making less than 7/8 scores in different movements and being able to hear the feedback on why the lower scores were given. Who hasn’t had their horse be tense in certain areas of the ring, break a gait, fail to do accurate figures. Much more representative of most dressage tests at these levels on the regional level.

I am middle-aged so I remember well the days when mid-60s was an extremely good score and 70s were all ut unheard of. A byproduct of the fact everyone in our region was riding TB and QH crosses back then, not a warmblood on our island until the late 1980s.

Riding has gotten better. The quality of purpose-bred horse has gotten much better, so at the highest end of the sport the scores have gone way up. For those of us with average horses, mid-60s is still an extremely good score, even more so as you move up the levels. So I really don’t think our horses are being penalized with the move to more emphasis on gaits, just that the really superb horses are being rewarded more.

I think it was the 3-1 test where someone in the audience asked what the judge meant in her comment “more fluidity needed” in the half pass. She had a great description of how someone like Steffan Peters and Ravel just made the HP flow like a stream of water. The horse doing the demo had a good HP, 7 or 7.5 but to move up into 8,9,10 territory, the judge explained you needed that fluid quality that gives the observer goosebumps.

[gailbyrd]

@BigMama1

I think it was the 3-1 test where someone in the audience asked what the judge meant in her comment “more fluidity needed” in the half pass. She had a great description of how someone like Steffan Peters and Ravel just made the HP flow like a stream of water. The horse doing the demo had a good HP, 7 or 7.5 but to move up into 8,9,10 territory, the judge explained you needed that fluid quality that gives the observer goosebumps.

And when your horse gives you those moments of fluidity in the H-P, WOW!!! Getting them while riding a test, I think I would light up the earth with my smile and then forget the rest of the test :):)

[pluvinel]

@gailbyrd

Exactly, no one who trains for Dressage rides their horses for work.

…

This is revisionist history.

When Baron DeCoubertin initiated the modern Olympics, the equestrian events were all ridden by cavalry officers on their military horses. The “officers” were the only ones allowed to ride. The name escapes me, but in the US there was a non-commisioned soldier who rode and trained but was not allowed to compete because he was not a member of the officer corps.

The 3-day event competition used to be called the Military as it was expected to demonstrate a cavalry officer’s horse’s capabilities to be obedient in the dressage phase, have the bravery to compete in a cross country course of jumps, jump a steeplechase course, then have the endurance to come back a thrid day to jump a jumper course.

The whole “dressage means training” evolved from the expectations that a horse, to be useful, had to know its job…so, the expectation was that the horse have “functional education.”

That “functional education” seems to be quickly evaporating as dressage competitions are morphing into a glorified “1000 lb poodle show” if we continue to stress the gaits vs excellent workmanlike performances…

Look at what happenned to the TN Walkers (a formerly working breed) and Western Pleasure…they are all charaquitures of what was once expected of a functional working animal…look no further than what happened to the dog breeds like the GSD.

That’s ok…I’m not here to proseletyse…but I feel that people need to know the past history of equestrian events.

As the focus on the gaits continues in the more “conventional dressage” world, all the better for the folks interested in Working Equitation and Western Dressage…maybe I will buy a western saddle.

And some people who “train dressage” actually expect to be able to open gates off the back of their horses, or to cross bridges and creeks without meltdowns or to gallop cross country without tripping over their own feet.

[pluvinel]

@BigMama1

…

So I really don’t think our horses are being penalized with the move to more emphasis on gaits, just that the really superb horses are being rewarded more.
…

Sure they are…why is the USDF now considering proposing a qualifying rule to move up the levels and increasing the score to ride a freestyle?

[Silverbridge]

@pluvinel

I’m not here to proseletyse…

How fascinating that you think that.

[netg]

@pluvinel

Sure they are…why is the USDF now considering proposing a qualifying rule to move up the levels and increasing the score to ride a freestyle?

That’s exactly the problem.

If I need more, higher, scores on my more normal mover to be alooked to move up, I will probably just quit showing both with her AND my fancy youngster I intend to start showing this summer. I also object to the high scores given for truly incorrect work. Seriously look at the canter work in the 2-3 video; it’s almost all croup high, with rhythm issues, and extra changes thrown in because the horse is confused about the test given he’s an upper level horse. Understandable, but simply nothing like the scores given except it’s a “fancy horse” and that’s flat out bad for dressage.

[gailbyrd]

@pluvinel

This is revisionist history.

When Baron DeCoubertin initiated the modern Olympics, the equestrian events were all ridden by cavalry officers on their military horses. The “officers” were the only ones allowed to ride. The name escapes me, but in the US there was a non-commisioned soldier who rode and trained but was not allowed to compete because he was not a member of the officer corps.

The 3-day event competition used to be called the Military as it was expected to demonstrate a cavalry officer’s horse’s capabilities to be obedient in the dressage phase, have the bravery to compete in a cross country course of jumps, jump a steeplechase course, then have the endurance to come back a thrid day to jump a jumper course.

The whole “dressage means training” evolved from the expectations that a horse, to be useful, had to know its job…so, the expectation was that the horse have “functional education.”

That “functional education” seems to be quickly evaporating as dressage competitions are morphing into a glorified “1000 lb poodle show” if we continue to stress the gaits vs excellent workmanlike performances…

Look at what happenned to the TN Walkers (a formerly working breed) and Western Pleasure…they are all charaquitures of what was once expected of a functional working animal…look no further than what happened to the dog breeds like the GSD.

That’s ok…I’m not here to proseletyse…but I feel that people need to know the past history of equestrian events.

As the focus on the gaits continues in the more “conventional dressage” world, all the better for the folks interested in Working Equitation and Western Dressage…maybe I will buy a western saddle.

And some people who “train dressage” actually expect to be able to open gates off the back of their horses, or to cross bridges and creeks without meltdowns or to gallop cross country without tripping over their own feet.

Of course dressage (training) is to make a useful horse. But competition Dressage, like competition cutting, competition racing, competition reining, competition endurance are all events where the purpose bred is best at what they were bred for. I dare say my dear uncle who rides TW out on the trail doesn’t do ‘dressage’ training with his TW yet those horses are perfect for him to ride in his 70’s/80’s out on the trail. Because they were bred for that smooth/ground covering gait. And great personality. And they wouldn’t do well in TW competitions as they aren’t bred for the BIG gaits. But they are TW’s. And people are still breeding the smooth gaits/great minds.

The years of the beginning modern Olympics still had horses as a major part of the work force and use in the military. Having a good working horse was paramount. And those horses with all that good training couldn’t get the scores in dressage that we see today. The horses weren’t bred for our competition dressage. They didn’t need to be, they had to be working horses.

That being said, look at the video of Velegro and the little girl. Look at the video of Steven Colbert and Barisone’s GP horse. Look how many GP horses are now school masters teaching the next generation of young riders. Horses with good training/good minds make great teachers.

[atlatl]

@pluvinel

This is revisionist history.

Pretty sure they were talking about today

[SaddleFitterVA]

@pluvinel

I am sorry that you feel this way.

I come from a long career in process improvement. The philosophy that drives that profession is the fundamental premise that perfection is not attainable and some level of improvement is always possible.

It is the role of the practitioners to therefore take the opportunity to challenge the status quo to ask how the process (any process) can be improved.

I don’t believe the USDF has reached the nirvana of perfection yet.

So, if we could translate this into DQ terms, there should be 3 scored judge processes perhaps? We could have more, but for the sake of discussion…

Judge process #1: assign score to each movement [INDENT]Based upon pluvinel’s comments, I would think that she might score this symposium judge a 6.5, but perhaps I’m being over-generous, this one carries a lot of weight, since quality of gaits impacts this score.[/INDENT]
Judge process #2: assign comment to each movement’s score [INDENT]But here, she feels that the comment is not in alignment with the score, so a 4.0[/INDENT]
Judge Process #3: assign collective comments to entire test [INDENT]Not sure if this one can be assigned a score…[/INDENT]

Basically, it is never good enough, just like a dressage test.

[soloudinhere]

@netg

That’s exactly the problem.

If I need more, higher, scores on my more normal mover to be alooked to move up, I will probably just quit showing both with her AND my fancy youngster I intend to start showing this summer. I also object to the high scores given for truly incorrect work. Seriously look at the canter work in the 2-3 video; it’s almost all croup high, with rhythm issues, and extra changes thrown in because the horse is confused about the test given he’s an upper level horse. Understandable, but simply nothing like the scores given except it’s a “fancy horse” and that’s flat out bad for dressage.

It seems to me that there would be no satisfying you then. You object to both high scores for incorrect work and the scores you yourself receive.

as far as your assessment of this video, I don’t agree. I am not sure how you can educate your eye better, but it was not incorrect in the way you describe and certainly not for the level. A horse can’t be “confused by the test” since the horse is not doing the test on its own, so I don’t understand that comment either.

edited for clarity: I mean that the canter is not “croup high” as a gait and the rhythm issues I think you’re referring to, after watching the whole test, appears to be consistently the way the horse canters. I agree that the horse was not as attentive and on the aids as should be and that’s why there are unintended changes, etc, but one movement does not a test make.

[Dutchmare433]

@soloudinhere

It seems to me that there would be no satisfying you then. You object to both high scores for incorrect work and the scores you yourself receive.

as far as your assessment of this video, I don’t agree. I am not sure how you can educate your eye better, but it was not incorrect in the way you describe and certainly not for the level. A horse can’t be “confused by the test” since the horse is not doing the test on its own, so I don’t understand that comment either.

I feel like there is a disconnect somewhere when people talk about their own horses vs other people’s horses. From this thread, I almost get the impression that I have some unique access to excellent coaching or excellent horses or something. (Note, I don’t really think this access is unique…just basing on this thread.) But the group I was showing with this year included quite a few non-purpose bred horses (welsh cob, morgans, warmblood crosses, a few horses and ponies of unknown ancestry.) Everyone was pulling high 60s-low 70s by the end of the season (some into the mid-high 70s), even one of the kids on a decidedly average or below average moving pony. I myself have nice horses, not world beaters, but nice, but you’ve got to be able to sit the gaits in order to do anything with them.

I thought it was helpful to see all the new tests ridden through, they seem to ride nicely. They left the tests I liked as they were from last time and changed a few of the ones that were less ideal. It sounded like a few of the demo riders were last minute substitutes, and they dealt with it well. I found a lot of the commentary from the judge to be very helpful. Some of it being applicable to all test riding, in general.

[soloudinhere]

@Dutchmare433

I feel like there is a disconnect somewhere when people talk about their own horses vs other people’s horses. From this thread, I almost get the impression that I have some unique access to excellent coaching or excellent horses or something. (Note, I don’t really think this access is unique…just basing on this thread.)

I think there’s a lot of people out there who think they’re getting good coaching and believe their trainer’s explanations of why something is the way it is. Neither of those things makes it true, of course, but that is the reality for a lot of people - don’t know what they don’t know.

Please note that this comment is NOT directed at a specific someone at all, just that I see a lot of this getting wound around the axle about gait scores and score inflation and this and that, so unfair and I just don’t actually see it happening at actual shows with good, experienced judges.

[Dutchmare433]

@soloudinhere

I think there’s a lot of people out there who think they’re getting good coaching and believe their trainer’s explanations of why something is the way it is. Neither of those things makes it true, of course, but that is the reality for a lot of people - don’t know what they don’t know.

Please note that this comment is NOT directed at a specific someone at all, just that I see a lot of this getting wound around the axle about gait scores and score inflation and this and that, so unfair and I just don’t actually see it happening at actual shows with good, experienced judges.

Bold mine, I agree with everything you’ve said. I think there will always be the exception that proves the rule…someone riding poorly on a fancy horse eking out a decent score or someone riding a normal horse well not getting a wow score. The few people I have seen really riding terribly, fancy horse or not, have gotten absolutely terrible scores.

[Denali6298]

This thread has been fascinating and eye opening as to the all the changes in the last 15 years or so. (That was when I was last involved with showing.)

It seems to me the disconnect on this thread is more about how Dressage used to be scored vs now with regards to gaits, coefficients etc. It reminds me of Hunters then vs now and the long format vs short tracks in eventing. I think too, it boils down to funds. If the USDF is going to go the way of the hunters than a lot of people will be priced out with the rules regarding qualifying scores and raising the qualifying score. Never mind the cost to getting to the shows.

Also, yes some people do not have access to good coaching and they think they are getting good coaching. However, judging people’s issues through the lens of Region 8 (or some areas of Region 3) is just not fair. You can’t throw a rock in Region 8 and not hit a quality Dressage trainer. When I lived there 15 years ago, there were 4 BNT/BNR/S Judges within 15 miles of my house out in cow country. And that was just for Dressage. It seems the people most affected by these issues being raised are the people outside of Region 8.

Those are just my $0.02 that may not even be worth that. I would hate to see Dressage go the way of the hunters with regards to judging and cost.

[pluvinel]

@SaddleFitterVA

So, if we could translate this into DQ terms, there should be 3 scored judge processes perhaps? We could have more, but for the sake of discussion…

…

If one is doing process improvement, the first step a practitioner embarks on is to understand sources of and to reduce process variability.

To reduce variability, you have to measure variability…you establish a baseline…or else how would know you have actually changed a system…for good or bad?

There are 2 types of variability: [INDENT]>> Good Variability - This measures actual differences between “parts” (eg., riders or what one is trying to measure)
>> Bad Variability - This is typically called “Measurement System Error”…or just plain “Error”. This type of error is measured thru a Measurement Systems Analysis (MSA)[/INDENT]

Bad Variability or Measurement System Error arrises out of Operator Error and Instrument Error.

I don’t believe anyone has actually statistically quantified or done a dressage “Measurement Systems Analysis.” This would tell how well judges [INDENT]>> Agree with the “Standard”…eg., the rulebook[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2](Measured by the Kappa Statistic)[/INDENT]
[INDENT]>> Agree within themselves (Inter-rater reliability) )[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2](Measured by Kendall’s Correlation Coefficient)[/INDENT]

Bottom line…you can improve 2 things: [INDENT]>> The measurement system itself…eg., the quality of the judging[/INDENT]
[INDENT]>> The parts that are being produced…eg, the quality of the riding.[/INDENT]