And the plot thickens…
Christophe Soumillon just picked up a 5 day ban for his use of the whip on the winner in the big race of the day, the Champion Stakes. The race was worth £1.3m (around $2m) with £737,230 (around $1,159,146) going to the winner. As a result of being judged to have overused the whip, Soumillon will forfeit his 10% share of the prize money… OUCH!!
£54,000 to be exact!
Terri
Note he uses his whip 6 times instead of 5 in the final furlong. Has anyone walloped themselves with the whips we use over here? Well I have on myself(in case this takes a weird turn) on bare legs. It doesn’t hurt. Makes noise, not hurtful. I just wanted to see if they were indeed kinder!
Terri
Off to invent self imploding whips on the 5th wack!
Was anyone else watching TVG this morning?
Simon Bray and his co-hort actually discussed this. It seems like they usually dodge the controversial subjects, but the guy sitting with Simon talked about Jamie Spencer’s win on Cape Blanco. He said Frank Lyon was on air and said it was a terrific ride. He [unnamed man] said he watched from home and thought it was a terrible ride- too much whip.
I watched those races today and I wondered if anyone pulled their punches, and if the winner perhaps did not.
It had been clearly stated in the articles helpfully provided from you guys across the pond, about this there would be a forfeture of the purse for the jockey. I wondered if the horse who finished second might have won if he had been hit-how far off are we from having the winner declared invalid. It seems unfair to punish the jockey but let the result stand. [that will go over like a fart in a sauna!]
True Larksmom. Also remember there are very strict rules on non triers over here too. As in “stopping” horses for a low handicap rating then cashing a big gamble. And laying horses causes all sorts of situations as well. So now it could be easier for laying horses and “stopping” yet all around jockey still pays the price.
Unless you have a good horse, the bread and butter everyday racing is absolute crap in purse money. To make any sort of horse ownership fun and somewhat bill paying, gambles are what motivates people. It’s not like every horse in the race is running on his merits. Work in any racing yard and terms like " he’s on today" are common place. When asked how we cashed gambles back home, I really didn’t know how to answer. To me when they were good enough they won.
In reference to So You Think. He strikes me in all his races over here as a big lazy git. A few more cracks and who knows. I hesitate to write that as it’s always interpreted the wrong way. I need to rewatch his Aussie races.
Terri
[QUOTE=leilatigress;5896333]
Going 70mph down the road paying attention to your driving, and everyone around you and make sure to get to your exit on the freeway meanwhile listening to the kids fight in the back. Millions of people do it everyday. I’m really not seeing the issue of not knowing how many times you hit the horse with the whip. Figure out how to win the race without whipping the hell out of the horse. Showjumping has a rule on it and they have to remember strides, lines, etc. So again I’m all for the rule and it’s about damn time![/QUOTE]
There’s a huge difference between being balanced on your toes on top of a racehorse going 40mph, while being inches next to, or moments in front of others doing the same,
…and driving on the freeway at 70.
Agreed it should be more subjective. It would be cruel to smack one once when in obvious distress, than go 1+ over times to implore the last leap. Must have been lawyers, rather than horsemen, writing the rules…
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;5897707]
And the plot thickens…
Christophe Soumillon just picked up a 5 day ban for his use of the whip on the winner in the big race of the day, the Champion Stakes. The race was worth £1.3m (around $2m) with £737,230 (around $1,159,146) going to the winner. As a result of being judged to have overused the whip, Soumillon will forfeit his 10% share of the prize money… OUCH!![/QUOTE]
Luckily karma givith back to Christophe … he flew from England to Canada to race in the biggest race in our Nation to the North after his whopping fine:
Video: grade 1-t $1.5M CDN Canadian International at Woodbine
Sarah Lynx ($46.90) saved ground throughout under Christophe Soumillon before taking the lead early in the stretch, and then drew off to complete the 1 ½-mile distance over yielding turf in 2:34.90. She earned $900,000 of the $1.5 million purse for owner Mrs. Robert Ehrnrooth and trainer John Hammond.
So 10% of that is $90,000 US/CDN which is only slightly more than his stupid fine of $85k USD
Guardian Oct 17, 2011 "Kieren Fallon: ‘You expect me to count how many times I hit a horse?’
[Fallon] “I’m lucky. I can whistle to my horse and he’ll really extend for me.”
Fallon makes a low, shrill whistle through his teeth. “Nine out of 10 horses respond to that. They’re trying to get away from the whistle. I’ve been doing it for years, ever since I worked out that horses would run quicker for me if I did that instead of tapping them. They don’t feel the tap because they have adrenalin.”
As a jockey who races his horses sympathetically, preferring to whistle them into a winning position, Fallon’s strident opposition to the whip rule is persuasive. “I don’t use my whip much. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t hit a horse more than six times – it happens easily. We don’t count like these people. We’re just concentrating on getting the best out of our horse. You can’t be going [Fallon counts slowly] ‘one, two, three …’ I shut down completely to everything when I’m riding. People say, ‘When you won the Derby did you hear the crowd?’ I can’t hear a thing. I’m locked in my own world. And you expect me to count how many times I hit a horse? It’s crazy.”
He stresses that the jockeys are open to negotiation. “We don’t mind coming down to the seven [as the permitted number of times a whip can be used]. We don’t mind using the silly whips either – the air-cushioned ones that just make a pop – a noise. [But] who are the BHA bowing down to? Is it the RSPCA? Do they have the equivalent organisation in Ireland or France or Germany? Obviously they do. So how come the RSPCA in those countries are not getting involved? Why is it only in English racing?”
Such discord means that when Fallon is asked if he expects an early resolution of the crisis, he says: “To be honest with you: No.”
He and his fellow jockeys object most to the apparently bullying stance of the BHA. “The shit we have to put up with. All the carry-on. You’ve got 25 fucking guys in the weighing room sneaking around to see if you’re using your phone. They’re spending all this money checking we don’t use our phones in the weighing room. Changes should be made.”
Fallon’s racing style means it might suit him if the whip penalty undermined his rivals. “My friends have said: ‘Why are you worrying? No one was worrying about you when you were doing your three years. No one phoned you.’ And they’re right. But I don’t like to see other jockeys being bullied.”
In the discussion mix it’s worth citing the curious rejected [by the British Horse Racing Authority] request by a British track to try racing sans whips altogether:
Then there is the case of Towcester Racecourse, a little country track in Northhamptonshire, north of London, that positions itself as family-friendly and advertises itself as a charming site for a wedding as much as a robust hunt meet. General admission for the handful of racing days is free.
Earlier this year, the owners of Towcester (pronounced “toaster”) asked the BHA to allow them to conduct their jump racing whip free for their Oct. 5 meet. In the face of the new rules coming down the line, the request was denied.
“What we are going to do is reapply to the BHA,” said Kevin Ackerman, Towcester’s general manager. “We still have an aspiration to race under hands and heels and conduct a pilot to understand the effects and see if more people are encouraged to come to the racecourse.”
Towcester Racecourse was once part of the grand estate ‘Easton Neston’ but separated.
Eventers are expected to be able to count and at the upper levels they are going pretty *&^ fast over uneven terrain with pretty dangerous jumps ahead of them. And, they have to watch optimium time.
Asking someone to be able to count whippings doesn’t seem that odd to me and leads me wonder about those that doth protest.
No, I have not ridden in a race. And, I have not upper level evented. I have been been booking along though and had a horse that has NEVER stopped at water stop, and twice. 3 times you are out…is there adrenaline then? You betcha. Do you have up to $1000+ in gas and hotel and trainer fees and entry fees 'on the line" if you get eliminated? You betcha. Yet, somehow, I can count how many times I use my whip.
Whether the whip rule is good or not is out of my league, but the whining about having to count seems odd to me.
[QUOTE=akor;5907270]
Eventers are expected to be able to count and at the upper levels they are going pretty *&^ fast over uneven terrain with pretty dangerous jumps ahead of them. And, they have to watch optimium time.
Asking someone to be able to count whippings doesn’t seem that odd to me and leads me wonder about those that doth protest.
No, I have not ridden in a race. And, I have not upper level evented. I have been been booking along though and had a horse that has NEVER stopped at water stop, and twice. 3 times you are out…is there adrenaline then? You betcha. Do you have up to $1000+ in gas and hotel and trainer fees and entry fees 'on the line" if you get eliminated? You betcha. Yet, somehow, I can count how many times I use my whip.
Whether the whip rule is good or not is out of my league, but the whining about having to count seems odd to me.[/QUOTE]
But you’re riding by yourself. And once again, not balanced on your toes with everyone else in the race looming around you.
This is a pack of horses competing. The whip is also used in a race to urge the horse ahead or left or right, as well as convey a sense of urgency whether it’s to get away from another horse, if they are about to be closed off, or for the line. (Not my words - but that of a retired jockey/trainer.)
Again, seems to be the BHRA are cowtowing to outside pressures. Why not make it a subjective decision? Doesn’t sound like rules written by horsemen, but those who need an objective guide because they can’t otherwise tell what’s appropriate.
I love it!
I wish they would change the whip length and weight here in the U.S. and have our jockeys count to 5.
I believe we will see more tactful riding because of this rule.
What if no jockey ever used a whip while racing…why not eliminate the whip completely…than noone can complain about excessive use or subjective this or that…really …why can’t the whip be eliminated completely…as in just banned…any jockey using a whip is eliminated period…would this solve the problem…just
a thought??
The whip is not just used for beating a horse to the line. It has correctional uses when a horse is drifting. There is a safety issue here.
Also find it funny when people compare their H/J, eventing, or Paso Fino trail horse experience to that of a half ton of racing fit TB hurtling along at 40mph, sometimes in pack of up to 20 or 30 other horses and jockeys. Sorry guys, but your experience is nowhere near the same ball park.
As to counting… a straight up count is hard enough in the heat of a finish. But this rule is further complicated by being 7 total, but only 5 times inside the final furlong. When you’re coming up the stretch at 40mph that final furlong pole flies by reaaal fast, so being sure that you had just 5 of those strikes inside that line is not as simple as some of you think. You’ll notice that a lot of those suspensions/fines, including the two most high profile ones, i.e the one that led to Richard Hughes’ suspension and the one that cost Christophe Soumillon over $85,000, both involved 6 strikes in the final furlong. That’s just one over the limit. It’s not like they went all Calvin Borel-like on their mounts.
Having some whipless races might not be a bad idea, and one worth exploring. But not all horses would be suited to being ridden whipless.
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;5907796]
Having some whipless races might not be a bad idea, and one worth exploring. But not all horses would be suited to being ridden whipless.[/QUOTE]
Well there you go…the horses who are not suited to compete without the use of the whip would no longer be racehorses. So the race would be raced purely on how well horse/jockey do without any whips! It would still be competitive. I am not an expert (even though I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night)…lame joke…but it would be interesting to see how well the ponies would run and the jockeys ride without the hassle of whips. I guess we would see “sloooowwweeeerrr” races…yes? Would it be more dangerous for all involved without using whips.
[QUOTE=CVPeg;5907433]
Again, seems to be the BHRA are cowtowing to outside pressures. Why not make it a subjective decision? Doesn’t sound like rules written by horsemen, but those who need an objective guide because they can’t otherwise tell what’s appropriate.[/QUOTE]
In fairness, this new rule was introduced because of the subjectivity of the old rule. Having a finite number took out that subjectivity. The British whip rules were already probably already the strictest in the world rules prior to the introduction of this new rule.
Also, the idea of a jockey forfeiting their share of the prizemoney and the riding fee is an idea with some merit in that in theory it should dissuade the jockey from going overboard when there is major prize money on the line. Look at Frankie Dettori on Rewilding in the Prince of Wales G1 at Ascot this year. He had to have known that he was going to get a ban for the flaking he gave the horse, but he probably was glad to serve the suspension if it meant getting a G1 win. For a jockey of his status missing 5 or 10 days of meat and potatoes racing is nothing.
I think the new rule is well intentioned, but needs to be tweaked.
It will be interesting to watch the European jockeys in the Breeders Cup this year. If Jaime Spencer’s rides on Cape Blanco stateside this year are any thing to go on, they won’t be afraid to give the whip a workout.
I have thought the Brits a bit more overzealous than the jockeys here in the states, but the rule doesn’t make sense. Just glad a number limit hasn’t surfaced here yet. And as I mentioned earlier, there are situations where 1 strike of a whip could be abusive. So I think they need to tweak their subjective somehow, or their decision makers.
And for those eventers & others who want to see the whip dropped - great - then let’s take spurs out of competitions as well. I’m much more concerned about the apparent abuse of spurs seen lately. Spurs were rarely used many years ago, and then by only the true professionals skilled enough to apply them correctly. (Sorry, don’t want to take this on a tangent, or a whip vs. spurs discussion, but I just can’t see comparing eventing to skills required as a jockey. Really think you could do it?)
Also find it funny when people compare their H/J, eventing, or Paso Fino trail horse experience to that of a half ton of racing fit TB hurtling along at 40mph, sometimes in pack of up to 20 or 30 other horses and jockeys. Sorry guys, but your experience is nowhere near the same ball park.
^ Agreed completely.
Taking whips out of racing only makes sense if you think that the sole use of the whip is to beat the horse as punishment of some sort.
To answer the question of would it be dangerous to not have riders carry whips, the answer is yes.
Whips are usually reserved for the eliment of surprise, waking a horse up who is lagging, etc. Usually it is not neccasary to put a welt on a horse. Of course there has been abuse, riders putting an eye out, etc…but those are not your everyday occurances by a long shot.
Whips can come in very handy when a horse is lugging in or out, (to the non racing peeps, remember there are no leg aids a jock can use). So steering is done completly with reins, and sometimes whips. I know a whip has saved my butt on more than one occasion.
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