[QUOTE=snaffle635;7427944]
With regard to the free market discussion, the mileage rule is established by USEF or USHJA, right? Who says you have to run a show under USEF? If I had the capital and wanted to host my own horse show series, there’s nothing stopping me.[/QUOTE]
For the value of the horse it makes very little sense to spend money on a show that does not report results to USEF.
[QUOTE=snaffle635;7427944]
No flaming from me. You are right on the money, ahem, so to speak.
With regard to the free market discussion, the mileage rule is established by USEF or USHJA, right? Who says you have to run a show under USEF? If I had the capital and wanted to host my own horse show series, there’s nothing stopping me.[/QUOTE]
This is a good point but I’m not sure it helps that much in some parts of the country.
In CO, I’ve discovered the odd practice of running a local show and a USEF A show on the same grounds at the same time. This can be done at the larger facilities and because A shows here don’t have the attendance of other zones. This works out I guess because the operating costs are spread between the A competitors and the local competitors, and the local show isn’t subject to the mileage rule. That doesn’t make it much cheaper for the competitors of either type of show (there are still plenty of fees and if you use stalls you can’t bring your own bedding, yada yada yada), but I guess it keeps some of the shows from being cancelled for lack of entries and does provide more choice for competitors–unless you want to jump over 3’ or maybe 3’3", because then you have to show in the rated divisions.
I don’t think this type of thing would work where there is no vible “local” circuit but shows of similar type are typically USEF “C” shows in that area.
While I agree that the mileage rule has allowed some circuits to create big business out of their circuits and act as monopolies on the dates, I’m not sure that having more options would be enough to drive prices down significantly. Take the winter circuits, for example. You surely don’t have to spend all of your money at WEF, but I wouldn’t call showing at Thermal, HITS desert, the Gulf shows, Texas shows, Ocala, or any of the other winter A rated circuit alternatives to be exactly a cheap alternative.
[QUOTE=dags;7428048]
For the value of the horse it makes very little sense to spend money on a show that does not report results to USEF.[/QUOTE]
No doubt.
I was just responding to the ‘free market’ discussion.
Yes it is! I am currently showing the jumpers in WEF. It is my first season showing here and it is certainly not cheap…but I will say that I knew that before coming down so technically I shouldn’t be too horrified by the prices…
That depends why you are showing your horse.
[QUOTE=marginall;7427882]
Not to start a war, but I find married women who have husbands that pay for a bulk of their living/horse expenses if not all of their expenses don’t really “get it.” I know a lot of married women who don’t know what things cost because they don’t pay the bills.
In a perfect world, showing would be affordable so more people could enjoy the experience. Unfortunately, the world is far from perfect.
What is doable, is to be more sympathetic and compassionate to people who love horses, riding and showing but don’t have the financial means, or the dumb luck of being born into the right circumstances, to enjoy what so many people take for granted.[/QUOTE]
That’s an awfully broad brush you are painting with…and I’m single. There are plenty of married women that absolutely understand the family finances and aren’t relying on hubs to write a check.
Where I see a difference between myself and the OP is that all of my expenses come from one paycheck. There is no one to share anything with…it’s all on my shoulders. I did brusstle a bit at what I felt was an implied “You can do it if you work hard, set your priorities differently, etc” thought that was in her post. Actually, no, I can’t. Well, maybe once a year or so, but what’s the point in that?
[QUOTE=RugBug;7428259]
Where I see a difference between myself and the OP is that all of my expenses come from one paycheck. There is no one to share anything with…it’s all on my shoulders. I did brusstle a bit at what I felt was an implied “You can do it if you work hard, set your priorities differently, etc” thought that was in her post. Actually, no, I can’t. Well, maybe once a year or so, but what’s the point in that?[/QUOTE]
Actually, what I was trying to say was quite the opposite of that. You CANNOT do it if you work hard and set your priorities differently, you can only do it if you happen to be one of the lucky group who can afford to do so. At least until so few people can afford it that the prices are driven down. Since there are (as I’ve heard) 7500 horses showing at WEF on any given weekend (can that possibly be true), the horse show “monopoly” has no incentive to drive costs down. Quite the opposite, they have incentive to drive the costs up until the numbers go down.
My point about ME was that I have to sacrifice to do it, but I choose to make those sacrifices because I want to. Maybe someday I’ll be priced out as well, it could definitely happen, and is very close to happening now.
I’m making a supply and demand point. The demand is there, so the supply will continue to become more costly.
As far as mileage goes, again, it is a working free market as long as the demand is as high as it is. If demand were to go down, I really believe you that the horse show costs would go down as well.
FWIW, I pay the bills, and know my costs down to the cent.
You may be correct. Whatever.
However, even if it’s free market or limited free market or whatever it is, the fact is the pricing drives away a lot of people. So what you’re saying is if you can’t afford it, don’t bother.
Okay. There’s your limited fishbowl.
Because that fishbowl is, well, limited, say goodbye to your up and comers that don’t come from extraordinarily wealthy backgrounds. A pony kid who thinks if she works hard she has a chance? Screw her. If the parents can’t pay a grand for a weekend, chances are she won’t be able to catch many quality rides for a pretty long time. Maybe not until she can afford to be paid $50 a week to work as a working student for someone. Maybe never.
But don’t blame the people who are in the market to make a profit for driving up price as much as possible until their supply of entries drops. They are looking to maximize their profits.
I get it. Can’t pay, don’t play. I make more than most families of four in this country and I’m fortunate if I can afford an “A” show or two a year.
But there’s a flipside - our talent base won’t grow beyond the very wealthy or the children of the very wealthy. Some of them will be talented, some of them won’t be able to find 8 jumps if you stick them on Rox Dene herself and give them a seatbelt and a neck strap. So the future of your “free market” is one giant wealth sandbox, and let’s hope to heck some of em are talented enough to take on the rest of the world in international competition.
Lordsamercy, I’m glad I live in an area with quality schooling shows. This industry’s so expensive, that every time I hear a post supporting us paying more and more while pretty much saying “screw you” to those that can’t – in an economy that’s still hurting, kids with debt up to their eyeballs, and a baby booming generation that’s got it’s own financial woes, I just think of the fact that this sport can be VERY exclusionary.
And, for that matter, often in it’s own little world. But that’s the case of a lot of specialty industries.
Trixie - Bingo. That’s exactly what I’m saying. I can lament with you the inability for the common man to make it in this world, but a rich man’s world it is. Same goes for ANY high dollar commodity. People who race Ferraris for fun are not concerned about the common man making it in the international ring. They like their Ferraris. They’re pretty and they go fast.
I guess my whole point of this post was that the world goes round based on where the dollars are spent (almost the whole entire world), and the horse world is no different.
It sucks. But economics thus far support it.
I’m not say it’s right, I’m just saying it’s an economic equation that is pricing the pony kid out of the game not the horse show managers.
Remember, I am one of the very very very very very (x100) few working ammys out there trying to play the game. I often feel like I’m the only one. But I’m sure there are others. 
[QUOTE=Trixie;7428283]
You may be correct. Whatever.
However, even if it’s free market or limited free market or whatever it is, the fact is the pricing drives away a lot of people. So what you’re saying is if you can’t afford it, don’t bother.
Okay. There’s your limited fishbowl.
Because that fishbowl is, well, limited, say goodbye to your up and comers that don’t come from extraordinarily wealthy backgrounds. A pony kid who thinks if she works hard she has a chance? Screw her. If the parents can’t pay a grand for a weekend, chances are she won’t be able to catch many quality rides for a pretty long time. Maybe not until she can afford to be paid $50 a week to work as a working student for someone. Maybe never.
I get it. Can’t pay, don’t play. I make more than most families of four in this country and I’m fortunate if I can afford an “A” show or two a year.
But there’s a flipside - our talent base won’t grow beyond the very wealthy or the children of the very wealthy. Some of them will be talented, some of them won’t be able to find 8 jumps if you stick them on Rox Dene herself and give them a seatbelt and a neck strap. So the future of your “free market” is one giant wealth sandbox, and let’s hope to heck some of em are talented enough to take on the rest of the world in international competition.
Lordsamercy, I’m glad I live in an area with quality schooling shows. This industry’s so expensive, that every time I hear a post supporting us paying more and more while pretty much saying “screw you” to those that can’t – in an economy that’s still hurting, kids with debt up to their eyeballs, and a baby booming generation that’s got it’s own financial woes, I just think of the fact that this sport can be VERY exclusionary.[/QUOTE]
With regards to the “future of our sport”, I don’t think lack of money is the only problem. Just as big, if not bigger, is the issue that it has become much harder today for a professional to make a decent living at being a trainer. There is really very little, if any, incentive for our talented young riders to WANT to become professional trainers.
Go read the working student thread. I would bet that many working students know before they even start the position that they aren’t going to be professionals; they just want some horse time while they take a year off from the real world while they still can. I would also bet that a huge percentage of those who think they might possibly want to become professionals find out pretty quickly that they will be better off earning a good living at something else so they can enjoy horses as amateurs.
The juniors who have the talent and the money (and the drive), become professional riders, not trainers. The ones who have the talent but not the money go to college and end up in the amateur ring.
What’s frustrating is seeing the accessibility and affordability of horseshows in Europe and particularly the really great track for young horses. I get that it’s an entirely different ball game over here for a whole lot of reasons, but I struggle to understand why we keep supporting the model of the big for-profit shows. I’m guilty of it too, but I’ve hit my breaking point this year and I doubt I’ll be taking mine to many shows this year.
I started a thread several years ago about some of the ridiculous charges and my complaints from then still stand. $300 for a 10x10 tent stall for 5 days, not including shavings, is insane!
And I want to add that to a certain extent I don’t mind having to pay big dollars when I’m showing in big money classes on my upper level horse, but to pay those same dollars with no chance of winning money on my young horses is a tough pill to swallow. It would be nice for the shows to act like they cared about the sport as a whole and the development of horses and riders. I have a lot of trainer friends who would bring their young jumpers to shows they’re already at if the shows would offer cheap stalls for non-showing horses or price breaks for the young jumper entries. And seriously the fees on top of fees on top of fees are getting old. I didn’t mind paying a nominating fee to ride in a ring when it meant you could add and scratch for free, but then they added back the charges to add and scratch, and now why am I paying a nominating fee??? Those are the things that are really frustrating.
I don’t know what the answers are (or if there are any at all), but I’ve watched a lot of friends retire from the show world in the last 4 or 5 years. I’m an independent ammy and go to shows by myself. I used to have a big group of women I would meet up with who also went to shows by themselves. I’m the only one left who’s still chugging along, and I think it’s a shame that a large group of good riders with good horses who want to show won’t or can’t or don’t.
Ynl, you make another good point. It’s very hard, economically speaking, for a trainer without a string of high dollar clients to make a decently comfortable living. I know my trainer has a GP quality animal in her barn - one she’s competed in the GP’s and done well with - but can’t afford the costs of regularly showing him without patronage. And she was short listed for the Olympics.
Nickelodeon, there are a lot of us working ammies out there trying to make it. Like I said - I do OK financially. I support myself. I make more than many, many full families in this country and I do it without the fiduciary support of a significant other. But it wouldn’t just take a shift in my priorities to afford to show regularly at the big shows, it would take an entire paradigm shift. I might be able to swing a few more shows a year if I did the following:
Some of these things are not smart. It’s not just about priorities, it’s about an entire lifestyle, including being financially responsible (i.e., a few ribbons aren’t going to pay for my retirement).
Oh? And if I wanted to qualify for indoors, I’d have a HECK of a time trying to do it on your average 2-weeks vacation that most employers offer. Some days it seems like half the shows around here at least run ammies during the work week.
So I just do what I can, enjoy my horses and feel fortunate to have competed against the best of the best (surprisingly!) at our local shows, and get my random bits of glory a few times a year (Culpeper cost roughly a bit more than last year’s vacation).
The expense is insane. I totally agree that many riders will be edged out from the A circuit. And I think that is pretty deliberate. Some barns and shows are astronomically expensive just to make absolutely certain only the very wealthiest get in. If you have to ask how much, you can’t afford it.
There are a fair amount of uber capitalists as well who think something is good/better/best according to how much it costs. And they want to consume nothing but the very, very best. For certain things like saddles and trainers that may be true. But anyone can learn to lunge their own horse. Moreover, when you do that stuff yourself it’s just better - more intimate time with the horse, more responsibility, more really getting to know that horse and developing compassion for him. But, suddenly a pretty mundane skill becomes someone else’s specialty. When I was a kid, the emphasis was on learning to do everything yourself and being proud you can braid or lunge, etc. My DD is still at 18 very enamored of the A circuit and so we all work a lot and sacrifice a lot for her to do it maybe six times a year. It means a lot to her to compete at that level (and sometimes win some money thank God.) The competitions are meaningful and I see that. I enjoy being with her when she lunges or gets there early to feed. It’s precious time. And it’s pretty educational too to see what a lot of the other clients are not seeing. But it’s a very exclusive culture and becoming more so.
[QUOTE=Trixie;7428351]
Nickelodeon, there are a lot of us working ammies out there trying to make it. Like I said - I do OK financially. I support myself. I make more than many, many full families in this country and I do it without the fiduciary support of a significant other. But it wouldn’t just take a shift in my priorities to afford to show regularly at the big shows, it would take an entire paradigm shift. I might be able to swing a few more shows a year if I did the following:
Like Trixie, as a professional, I make a good living. I don’t buy shoes or clothes, don’t own a large vehicle, don’t live in an area where public transportation would work as the only option, I keep my house at 60 degrees in the winter and I don’t have central air for summers, and even if I canceled cable (can’t cancel internet; I have to put in extra hours at home at night and on weekends), I still couldn’t afford to show at WEF.
But I guess I totally blew it forever, because I:
-have a child already
-divorced my husband (is being happy really that important when I could be showing instead?)
-bought a house on my own
Damn. If only I had sacrificed better, I could be showing my horse at the AA shows.
I jest; I don’t regret my choices, and I wouldn’t trade any of them for anything.
Nickelodeon, I’ve been reading your blog and really enjoy it; you are obviously enjoying yourself, you love your horse, and you clearly appreciate how lucky you are to have this experience. But just because you were able to make sacrifices in YOUR life, and you have a husband who is willing, and even more importantly, able to be supportive of those sacrifices, does not mean that every generic amateur out there who really wants it could go to WEF for three weeks if they would just figure out how to “sacrifice” properly.
I’m thinking you didn’t mean to come across this way, but that’s a bit how your post came across to me.
[QUOTE=ynl063w;7428373]
Like Trixie, as a professional, I make a good living. I don’t buy shoes or clothes, don’t own a large vehicle, don’t live in an area where public transportation would work as the only option, I keep my house at 60 degrees in the winter and I don’t have central air for summers, and even if I canceled cable (can’t cancel internet; I have to put in extra hours at home at night and on weekends), I still couldn’t afford to show at WEF.
But I guess I totally blew it forever, because I:
-have a child already
-divorced my husband (is being happy really that important when I could be showing instead?)
-bought a house on my own
Damn. If only I had sacrificed better, I could be showing my horse at the AA shows.
I jest; I don’t regret my choices, and I wouldn’t trade any of them for anything.
Nickelodeon, I’ve been reading your blog and really enjoy it; you are obviously enjoying yourself, you love your horse, and you clearly appreciate how lucky you are to have this experience. But just because you were able to make sacrifices in YOUR life, and you have a husband who is willing, and even more importantly, able to be supportive of those sacrifices, does not mean that every generic amateur out there who really wants it could go to WEF for three weeks if they would just figure out how to “sacrifice” properly.
I’m thinking you didn’t mean to come across this way, but that’s a bit how your post came across to me.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, that wasn’t my goal, and perhaps I should take the part out about me personally. What I was trying to say was that the only way I could do it was to make sacrifices (and be super uber amazingly lucky), but there’s only so much anyone can do to try to get out there. If you’re not from money, or of money, the economics are against you.
That’s what I’m trying to say.
It’s all the posts about how we’re getting screwed by show management. I just disagree. We’re getting screwed by the same thing that screws everyone all the time, the people with the money win.
[QUOTE=Nickelodian;7428383]
Honestly, that wasn’t my goal, and perhaps I should take the part out about me personally. What I was trying to say was that the only way I could do it was to make sacrifices (and be super uber amazingly lucky), but there’s only so much anyone can do to try to get out there. If you’re not from money, or of money, the economics are against you.
That’s what I’m trying to say.
It’s all the posts about how we’re getting screwed by show management. I just disagree. We’re getting screwed by the same thing that screws everyone all the time, the people with the money win.[/QUOTE]
But I still think the point that you’re missing is that YOU are able to make sacrifices to make this work for you and your husband in ways that don’t jeopardize your present and future well-being in any monumental ways. Unless I’m wrong and you and your husband cashed in your 401Ks and moved to a rented room in the projects so you could go to WEF.
I think it’s awesome that you’ve been able to do this. But that doesn’t mean that everyone can make similar (non-life altering in a really negative way) sacrifices and do the same thing.
[QUOTE=merrygoround;7427872]
Nickeodeon-“Horse showing is the sport of kings. It’s akin to sail boat racing or race car driving.”
Sorry dear, It’s racing that’s the sport of kings, and it’s even more expensive. :lol:[/QUOTE]
Isn’t Polo called the Sport of Kings??? And its even more expensive…
PNWjumper
Schoolmaster
Join Date
Jul. 24, 2006
Location
Seattle, WA
Posts
5,150
What’s frustrating is seeing the accessibility and affordability of horseshows in Europe and particularly the really great track for young horses. I get that it’s an entirely different ball game over here for a whole lot of reasons, but I struggle to understand why we keep supporting the model of the big for-profit shows. I’m guilty of it too, but I’ve hit my breaking point this year and I doubt I’ll be taking mine to many shows this year.
I started a thread several years ago about some of the ridiculous charges and my complaints from then still stand. $300 for a 10x10 tent stall for 5 days, not including shavings, is insane!
And I want to add that to a certain extent I don’t mind having to pay big dollars when I’m showing in big money classes on my upper level horse, but to pay those same dollars with no chance of winning money on my young horses is a tough pill to swallow. It would be nice for the shows to act like they cared about the sport as a whole and the development of horses and riders. I have a lot of trainer friends who would bring their young jumpers to shows they’re already at if the shows would offer cheap stalls for non-showing horses or price breaks for the young jumper entries. And seriously the fees on top of fees on top of fees are getting old. I didn’t mind paying a nominating fee to ride in a ring when it meant you could add and scratch for free, but then they added back the charges to add and scratch, and now why am I paying a nominating fee??? Those are the things that are really frustrating.
I don’t know what the answers are (or if there are any at all), but I’ve watched a lot of friends retire from the show world in the last 4 or 5 years. I’m an independent ammy and go to shows by myself. I used to have a big group of women I would meet up with who also went to shows by themselves. I’m the only one left who’s still chugging along, and I think it’s a shame that a large group of good riders with good horses who want to show won’t or can’t or don’t.
Forever exiled in the NW.
Well said.
One thing I appreciated about WEF was that at least in the jumpers, even the lower level classes like low adults, I could win back a good chunk of money. But doing the highs at a HITS show? Nope. Just a ribbon. And the HITS shows really weren’t any cheaper to attend. Like I said, I don’t really miss it. Foxhunting for a whole season costs less than a week at a rated show. And a paperchase? Maybe $20 for several hours of fun (vs. $45 for 80 seconds in the ring). The math made for a pretty easy choice.
[QUOTE=Manni01;7428440]
Isn’t Polo called the Sport of Kings??? And its even more expensive…[/QUOTE]
I thought horse racing was the sport of kings.
[QUOTE=PNWjumper;7428348]
What’s frustrating is seeing the accessibility and affordability of horseshows in Europe and particularly the really great track for young horses. I get that it’s an entirely different ball game over here for a whole lot of reasons, but I struggle to understand why we keep supporting the model of the big for-profit shows. I’m guilty of it too, but I’ve hit my breaking point this year and I doubt I’ll be taking mine to many shows this year.
I started a thread several years ago about some of the ridiculous charges and my complaints from then still stand. $300 for a 10x10 tent stall for 5 days, not including shavings, is insane!
And I want to add that to a certain extent I don’t mind having to pay big dollars when I’m showing in big money classes on my upper level horse, but to pay those same dollars with no chance of winning money on my young horses is a tough pill to swallow. It would be nice for the shows to act like they cared about the sport as a whole and the development of horses and riders. I have a lot of trainer friends who would bring their young jumpers to shows they’re already at if the shows would offer cheap stalls for non-showing horses or price breaks for the young jumper entries. And seriously the fees on top of fees on top of fees are getting old. I didn’t mind paying a nominating fee to ride in a ring when it meant you could add and scratch for free, but then they added back the charges to add and scratch, and now why am I paying a nominating fee??? Those are the things that are really frustrating.
I don’t know what the answers are (or if there are any at all), but I’ve watched a lot of friends retire from the show world in the last 4 or 5 years. I’m an independent ammy and go to shows by myself. I used to have a big group of women I would meet up with who also went to shows by themselves. I’m the only one left who’s still chugging along, and I think it’s a shame that a large group of good riders with good horses who want to show won’t or can’t or don’t.[/QUOTE]
Great post.
Around here, the schooling shows charge $70 for three days for the same stalls that are $250 for the week at a rated show. At the western shows, from what I understand, the stalls are <$100. That’s where I get irritated. Clearly this is show management marking the stalls up.
I am totally pro making-a-profit.
I am also for making things as financially feasible for people as possible.
I know those two things can be in tension, and sometimes one has to win over the other, but sometimes they can both be true.
The wealth it takes to compete at the top nationally, much less internationally, is not significant. It’s astounding. And is a financial mountain that is impossible for most to overcome.
Whether that falls into the “life isn’t fair” category or whether it’s from an attributable cause that can be fixed is I think the heart of the issue.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
