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NEWSFLASH: Horse showing is expensive

Hunter/Jumper
#61

[QUOTE=RugBug;7429102]
Yabbut, when buying shoes, there are decent options other than Jimmy Choos. [/QUOTE]

Yes, and there are a whole range of shoes between Payless and Jimmy Choo to chose from. What we need are more Nine West versions of horse shows–maybe not WEF-fancy, but decently run and with decent jumps and footing. This is the perfect niche for C or B shows to fill, if they could come back. There were a few of them in the MD area that I’m actually looking at trying this year, because while there are good lower-level local options, if you want to jump more than 2’6, you’ve got to go rated. If you can go show on ONE day, hauling in, it’s not any more expensive at a B/C than it is at a recognized Event or Dressage show; it’s when you get to the need for overnight stabling because your division goes two days, etc., that prices really start going up. I’d be more tempted to do more Hunter stuff versus Eventing/Dressage if prices were more reasonable, and if more local shows had something bigger than 2’6 and decent footing, I’d be happy to go show there too. I’m not showing to put a record on the horse to sell her; I’m showing to have fun with my horse. I’d think there are plenty of people out there of a similar mind.

#62

DINK…that is what I am. Even with both my husband and I making good salaries I still do not show at EVERY A show I want to.
I agree with many that most people have been priced out and others will continue to be as prices will continue to increase.
Its just not WEF either. Showing a week at an A show in TX with a horse that does not require a prof division is going to cost me up to 2k. TWO thousand dollars!! that is insane.

#63

If Mr. Horse is used to jumping a box and a row of flowers and some plain poles at local shows probably set on lines a little short, he is going to flip his lid when he sees full built up jumps on a 13’+ line. It’s not fair to him to expect him to keep it together for a few shows a year when he doesn’t have the exposure

Why? A jump is a jump and correct schooling at home should mean that a jump is jump where ever the horse is jumping. Human nerves - that is a different problem, but probably not the horses. A bit of research http://horsetalk.co.nz/2013/02/20/study-finds-no-signs-stage-fright-horses/#axzz2tDpC78Nw

#64

no, there is typically a significant difference in crawling up to a 3’ or 3’6 line on the 12 step versus the pace required to do it correctly on the 13’ (or even 12’6 step). Yes, if the horse can make the step, is used to jumping off that pace, the pilot asks for it and is comfortable riding it, yes, it’s all fine and dandy. But that assumes a whole lot of things in play that typically DO NOT happen at a local show.

Since many local shows ARE filling the vacuum left behind by the all but extinct C show, they do have great fences, big stepped out boxes and decorative ground lines that are on par, but personally I have never seen anything but the 12’ line and narrower oxers than in the rateds.

I know what to expect when transitioning between local and rated and I still would find it hard to recreate exactly what I needed to make dropping that nickel to go to rated worth it unless I was regularly showing at rateds. If I showed all year at a local and wanted to do the rated 1-2x a year, it would probably be a waste of my $$ because I suspect it would be week 2 before we worked out the kinks and were competitive. And truthfully, people I know who were seriously good at this rated stuff feel the same way. Now if I just wanted to show up and say I did it, yeah, I think it would be fine. But if I wanted to be competitive? Different story.

#65

It is so interesting to see the level of consensus among highly experienced horsepeople on this topic! …And at the same time the shared sentiment that there is little or nothing to be done.

(Edited to add: OK, I see the suggestion that local B and C shows could/should fill the gap. As noted by DMK et al, still looks like this is a very different market/product.)

You all have outlined a pretty classic set of market problems SO clearly.

OP: Horse showing is intrinsically expensive.
Prime Time: Yes, and the mileage rule creates monopoly/oligopoly conditions, which we all know increases consumer cost dramatically in any market (up to some theoretical limit which we apparently haven’t reached yet in the H/J business.)
Many: As a result of (monopoly) pricing, many consumers are leaving the market.
Many: But the monopoly sellers don’t care as long as there are some willing to pay the price demanded. Their business model works for them, so they don’t care if many potential buyers exit (and they don’t care if some new potential buyers fail to take up the sport.) If prices increase indefinitely, this model will break down–but with super-rich buyers, that may be a long way off.
Many: This situation will probably cause the market base (all buyers at all price points) to shrink over time.
Shifting perspectives from economics, that is not good for our sport.
I am new here and ignorant:-) Tell me, is there any approach to modifying the mileage rule that would be economically/politically feasible?
Truth in advertising, I’m an old lady who has been to 2 count’em 2 AAA shows and may never go to another. But this is a fascinating problem…

#66

[QUOTE=Blinky;7429240]
DINK…that is what I am. Even with both my husband and I making good salaries I still do not show at EVERY A show I want to.
I agree with many that most people have been priced out and others will continue to be as prices will continue to increase.
Its just not WEF either. Showing a week at an A show in TX with a horse that does not require a prof division is going to cost me up to 2k. TWO thousand dollars!! that is insane.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree. Add to it that in order to be competive, you need a $$$ horse prices a ton of ammies out of the market. And Im sure some one is going to post “Buy a greenie/OTTB/bring it along yourself blah blah blah”. I call BS because a) greenie WBs are still $$$ b) OTTBs are not competive expect for the rare few c) you need to pay training which ups your monthly costs and d) for a lot of us with the careers that pay the salary to do this sport, we dont have time to bring along a baby. My job is not flexible, I travel CONSTANTLY and I cant commit 6 days a week, hell Im lucky if I can ride 3 days a week most weeks, to bring along a baby.

Around here a weekend at a local show will cost you close to $1000 even with hauling your horse yourself. I’ve got a super nice hunter, but right now I’ve been priced out of showing and so sticking to lessons and trail riding.

#67

personally I think that eliminating the mileage rule wouldn’t do much at this point. I think there was a time when it would have created diversity and set USHJA on the path to address the problem of growth while not requiring too much change (because while all businesses must adapt/change/evolve or die, very few of them like to do something “new”).

But I also think that ship has sailed. And at some point, the industry (as it stands to day) will either change significantly or somebody will build a better mousetrap and make it irrelevant.

Right now I am in an industry that had necessary but radical change forced on it, and it is now looking at how it 9as an industry whole) will remake itself over the next 10/20/30 years to survive. I’m lucky enough to work for a company that has seen it coming, positioned itself to succeed and has been doing so long before the change was forced on it. If we are smart and lucky, we will make it, and make it well - but VERY different. What is an absolute given is that if you aren’t smart, you won’t be around in 10-15 years. Dumb luck doesn’t actually help the dumb in the business world.

#68

Quote Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Isn’t Polo called the Sport of Kings??? And its even more expensive…


Quote Originally Posted by ynl063w--I thought racing was the sport of kings.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quote Originally Posted by RugBug ----Surfing is the sport of kings.  (a lot of sports lay claim to this "title." )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Depends are where you are in relationship to the Pacific Ocean.  If you are surrounded by it, well I guess surfing wins.  Other wise.... :lol:

It [U]is[U][/U][/U] racing that is the sport of kings.;)
#69

This. We’re horse people. We KNOW horses are expensive. We’ve always known that. The issue is that increasing costs of H/J showing* are outpacing basically everything else. That’s the heart of my complaint, and I think many others’ too. This has always been a sport for the well-off, but when it’s a real financial struggle for the “merely” well-off to compete above 2’6", that worries me and doesn’t bode well for the sport 20 years from now.

(*and board/training/etc., but not so much otherwise more would quit outright instead of switching disciplines or stopping showing.)

I don’t know what the answers are, but it’s important to have this discussion.

#70

Not only would a horse flip its lid when asked to step up from local 11-12’ stride to the A show 13’ foot stride, as well as jumps, but a horse will ALSO flip its lid when asked to move from a AA show in Texas, Colorado, or Gulfport to WEF.

Ask me how I know. :rolleyes:

I think this thread has been a fascinating viewpoint of various perspectives. I would like to stomp my feet and say it’s not fair that I can only do 10 or so A shows a year when others are on the road every week, but apparently I already sound bratty on this thread and I don’t want to sound any more so. :wink:

In between these shows I plan to attend some local shows like the one Tothenines and MsRidiculous mentioned to keep my horse going, I am lucky enough to be in an area where this is a possibility.

I think MsRidiculous is spot on when she says that these types of shows are where the industry will likely grow to, because…showing is intrinsically expensive and made so by those with the money to pay to play.

#71

For those of you that say “haul your own”, how much does your truck/trailer/insurance cost you? do you have a second commuter vehicle so you aren’t getting terrible gas mileage? I highly doubt you are saving as much as you think by hauling your own to shows. Now, if you are hauling frequently (weekly?) you may see some ROI, but it’s far cheaper for me to pay for hauling (and I have a trainer who follows real rules on trailering, which means she cannot make a profit without having a commercial license. I’m sure there are tons of people hauling that ignore that little item).

[QUOTE=DMK;7429282]
no, there is typically a significant difference in crawling up to a 3’ or 3’6 line on the 12 step versus the pace required to do it correctly on the 13’ (or even 12’6 step). Yes, if the horse can make the step, is used to jumping off that pace, the pilot asks for it and is comfortable riding it, yes, it’s all fine and dandy. But that assumes a whole lot of things in play that typically DO NOT happen at a local show.

Since many local shows ARE filling the vacuum left behind by the all but extinct C show, they do have great fences, big stepped out boxes and decorative ground lines that are on par, but personally I have never seen anything but the 12’ line and narrower oxers than in the rateds.

I know what to expect when transitioning between local and rated and I still would find it hard to recreate exactly what I needed to make dropping that nickel to go to rated worth it unless I was regularly showing at rateds. If I showed all year at a local and wanted to do the rated 1-2x a year, it would probably be a waste of my $$ because I suspect it would be week 2 before we worked out the kinks and were competitive. And truthfully, people I know who were seriously good at this rated stuff feel the same way. Now if I just wanted to show up and say I did it, yeah, I think it would be fine. But if I wanted to be competitive? Different story.[/QUOTE]

So much this I am just going to post it again. :slight_smile:

For me, you have to add that I’m not seriously good at showing (or even riding) AND I’m trying to move up to heights I’ve never been able to do before for various reasons and it should be highly understandable why I don’t show rated. Sitting around burning my money would be more useful. At least I’d be warm…for a minute or so.

#72

Nickelodian, most smart people don’t begrudge you or anyone else the ability and right to go to 1 or 52 weeks of big shows. :wink: But hopefully you knew that (or knew to ignore the idiots). :smiley:

I think for some of us, we do see how very far and fast the cost of a sport (that has ALWAYS been for the well off, financially speaking) has outpaced us. If you do your taxes on turbotax, it helpfully lets you know what percentile of income you are in (in the wealthiest nation on the planet)… and many of us know we are VERY fortunate to be able to afford our expensive hobby the same way we know that there are many, many people less fortunate than us.

And because we are involved in the sport (even if at a different level than in the past), we also get a fairly accurate picture of how much higher up the economic ladder we would need to be to play in this sport the way we did even 10-15 years ago.

It’s hard not to be pessimistic about the future of the sport from that view, but it is entirely without rancor or bitterness towards those who are competing.

#73

Agree with Nick on the striding. These nice local shows are not intended to mimic the rated shows in that regard. That way, they allow the nice local level horses to be competitive too. At our local shows, Robert sets the away lines at a foot or two short (i.e., 71’ for a five stride), the lines toward the gate are on 12’, and he usually has a bending line or two so you can adjust your track. Everyone has fun and no one has to run. His courses are absolutely correct.

But since he actually bothers to take down the outside lines for the hacks (rather than just set them on the quarter lines!), I bet he could be talked into moving the lines out a bit for the higher hunters.

#74

I don’t begrudge anyone their ability to show. The only thing that gets me is if someone (and this is not the OP) comes with a “If I can do it, so can everyone” attitude. There are so very many variables involved that that statement just isn’t true.

Oh, I also don’t like when people get all “you only count if you show A/AA” mentalities. Again, not the OP.

#75

Jen, there ARE some local shows in VA where you can jump above 2’6". Nearly every show has a working hunter division at at least 2’9" and usually 3’, and Fox Chase has started offering a 3’6" option as well after I whined about it for long enough. I’ve managed to get FPP to put the jumps up if I feel like it, too.

I’ve rarely seen the 3’6" jumpers not fill at a local show down here, at least at the better ones.

#76

[QUOTE=Nickelodian;7429339]
Not only would a horse flip its lid when asked to step up from local 11-12’ stride to the A show 13’ foot stride, as well as jumps, but a horse will ALSO flip its lid when asked to move from a AA show in Texas, Colorado, or Gulfport to WEF. .[/QUOTE]

AGREE- I know that WEF is top-level competition but after showing the AA jumpers all summer and fall I was pretty suprised at what a jump up in difficulty showing here @ WEF is. The jumps are set bigger, the classes are huge, and the courses are much trickier.

#77

[QUOTE=Nickelodian;7429339]
Not only would a horse flip its lid when asked to step up from local 11-12’ stride to the A show 13’ foot stride, as well as jumps, but a horse will ALSO flip its lid when asked to move from a AA show in Texas, Colorado, or Gulfport to WEF.

Ask me how I know. :rolleyes:

I think this thread has been a fascinating viewpoint of various perspectives. I would like to stomp my feet and say it’s not fair that I can only do 10 or so A shows a year when others are on the road every week, but apparently I already sound bratty on this thread and I don’t want to sound any more so. :wink:

In between these shows I plan to attend some local shows like the one Tothenines and MsRidiculous mentioned to keep my horse going, I am lucky enough to be in an area where this is a possibility.

I think MsRidiculous is spot on when she says that these types of shows are where the industry will likely grow to, because…showing is intrinsically expensive and made so by those with the money to pay to play.[/QUOTE]

Nickelodian, I sincerely hope you are not referring to me as one who thinks you sound bratty, because that is the last thing I think of you. I meant it when I said that you clearly love your horse and you seem to genuinely appreciate the opportunities that you have, and you obviously have worked hard to get to where you are. I really don’t see how anyone could argue those points. I apologize if I used you to make a point in a way that made you feel badly, because I really did not mean to do that.

#78

[QUOTE=Trixie;7429509]
Jen, there ARE some local shows in VA where you can jump above 2’6". Nearly every show has a working hunter division at at least 2’9" and usually 3’, and Fox Chase has started offering a 3’6" option as well after I whined about it for long enough. I’ve managed to get FPP to put the jumps up if I feel like it, too.

I’ve rarely seen the 3’6" jumpers not fill at a local show down here, at least at the better ones.[/QUOTE]

Given where I board in MD, the cost of hauling down to Fox Chase or Summerplace (both of which are quite nice!) makes that pretty break-even with doing a B/C at WBTA or Country Hill or even Swan Lake for me. And if I have to chose at the same cost to me, I’d like to do a few rated shows with her, just for fun.

There I wish there was enough competition at the local hunter/jumper circuits to run bigger classes, which they usually have in their prize lists, just don’t have fill enough to run. I wonder if we’ll start seeing more of them actually run as folks are priced out of the bigger show circuits. I’m hopeful for the new hunter series that Loch Moy is running, because they have good rings and footing, so I probably will go try doing one of them in the bigger divisions if schedule allows.

For the record, I don’t think it’s “bratty” to be able to afford to show at bigger shows. If I could, I would, too. But I don’t have that budget, and frankly don’t have that horse. I know what my talent and budget allow, and try to do the best with what I have available. Luckily, I live in an area where there are options, it would be nice if other areas had a wider array of choices with people who would like to show at a variety of budget points, too. While I don’t have a problem with an expensive circuit, I just think it would be nice if there were other, (relatively) affordable choices for those who want to compete.

#79

You’re lucky. I don’t know of one single trainer that hauls that follows that rule. Maybe they all carry commercial licenses, I don’t honestly know. What I do know is that the hauling prices I’ve been quoted are between 85 cents and 1.25 per mile. My ROI in my truck and trailer has paid for itself 10 fold at least by now. Probably more.

#80

[QUOTE=Nickelodian;7430203]
You’re lucky. I don’t know of one single trainer that hauls that follows that rule. Maybe they all carry commercial licenses, I don’t honestly know. What I do know is that the hauling prices I’ve been quoted are between 85 cents and 1.25 per mile. My ROI in my truck and trailer has paid for itself 10 fold at least by now. Probably more.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I absolutely know how lucky I am, in more ways than just adherence to commercial driving rules. :slight_smile: The funny thing is that her husband has his commercial license, but he’s usually not the one driving.

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