Darwin anyone?
[QUOTE=Mukluk;8403073]
Darwin anyone?[/QUOTE]
It is exactly that type of comment from the helmet Nazis that makes non-helmet wearers stick their fingers in their ears and go “lalalalalaIdon’thearyoulalalalala”.
[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;8402824]
I pretty sure that’s on the list of logical fallacies. Maybe “Weak Analogy?” “Irrelevant Appeal?”
How is this argument ridiculous? Let me count the ways.
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Of course more people have head injuries from auto accidents than from falling off horses. Vastly more people drive or ride in automobiles than ride horses.
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The forces involved in an auto accident are vastly different from the forces involved in falling off a horse. There are ASTM tested and approved helmets for riding that have been demonstrated to provide protection to the wearer’s head during a fall. The same cannot be said for helmets in car accidents. (Not counting car racing.)
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Drivers and passengers in vehicles have a variety of other safety devices to help protect them in accidents. Seat belts, air bags, front ends that collapse and absorb impact…[/QUOTE]
Your response makes no sense at all. I’m comparing head injuries sustained while riding with head injuries sustained while driving. People are more likely to sustain a head injury from an mva than they are from a horseback riding incident.
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8403268]
Your response makes no sense at all. I’m comparing head injuries sustained while riding with head injuries sustained while driving. People are more likely to sustain a head injury from an mva than they are from a horseback riding incident.[/QUOTE]
You’re still talking apples and oranges. You’re trying to equate two things that have nothing to do with one another. But since you insist on using an argument based on a logical fallacy, I’ll offer you my own argument based on a different logical fallacy.
If you are an active rider and you also drive a car, you are much more likely to receive a head injury falling from a horse than you are from a car accident. You can even broaden that and say you are more likely to receive an injury of any kind falling off a horse than you are in a car accident.
I’m closing in on 50 years of riding horses. During those years, I’ve been injured seriously enough to go to the hospital 3 times after falling from a horse, one of which was a head injury (not wearing a helmet). I have NEVER been injured in a car accident.
If I gather all my horse riding friends together and start cataloging lifetime injuries resulting from falls from horses and lifetime injuries from car accidents, I guarantee you that the “horse fall” list would be longer than the “car accident” list. If you restrict the list to head injuries, the “horse fall” list would still be longer than the “car accident” list.
So, your individual risk of head injury due to falling from a horse is greater than your individual risk of head injury from a car accident.
If the relevant data sets existed (they don’t), you could calculate the odds and determine exactly what the risk level is for both cases.
[QUOTE=shakeytails;8403148]
It is exactly that type of comment from the helmet Nazis that makes non-helmet wearers stick their fingers in their ears and go “lalalalalaIdon’thearyoulalalalala”.[/QUOTE]
Well what I meant by that was those who fall from horses without a helmet and bounce right back up will soon overtake the earth. After all it’s only the wimpy folk with untrained horses who wuss out and wear a helmet. Bunch of sissies I say. And let it be known I NEVER wear a seatbelt because I KNOW HOW TO DRIVE!!!
[QUOTE=Mukluk;8404857]
Well what I meant by that was those who fall from horses without a helmet and bounce right back up will soon overtake the earth. After all it’s only the wimpy folk with untrained horses who wuss out and wear a helmet. Bunch of sissies I say. And let it be known I NEVER wear a seatbelt because I KNOW HOW TO DRIVE!!![/QUOTE]
Your sarcasm is crass and really unwanted…especially your comment about the children and young adults who ride in the western pleasure classes at the AQHA Congress. Sour grapes perhaps?
As with what someone else said…I was involved in an MVA with a young girl who was talking on her cell and ran a stop sign. My husbands car was totaled and I was hurt as well, after therapy and several x-rays and an MRI, I had to have extensive surgery on my left wrist to repair damage/tears to the tendons and muscles, as well as having the bone shaved and now have to deal with the life long changes due to that.
I have NEVER so far, in all my years of riding, ever been hurt like that on a horse. Perhaps it is true that God watches out for fools and sinners or I am just lucky to have had the pleasure of riding some great horses who knew their job well, took care of their rider and now own my own who are more semi-retired and we live the life of fun instead of hard work when we were younger.
[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;8403581]
If the relevant data sets existed (they don’t), you could calculate the odds and determine exactly what the risk level is for both cases.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it does.
Post #58
“A 2007 study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that horseback riding resulted in 11.7 percent of all traumatic brain injuries in recreational sports from 2001 to 2005, the highest of any athletic activity”
http://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/get_the_facts.html
TBIs caused by mvas 14.3%
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8405012]
Yes, it does.
Post #58
“A 2007 study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that horseback riding resulted in 11.7 percent of all traumatic brain injuries in recreational sports from 2001 to 2005, the highest of any athletic activity”
http://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/get_the_facts.html
TBIs caused by mvas 14.3%[/QUOTE]
So, do you really not understand this or are you just trying to be obtuse?
I’ll try one more time, mostly for the benefit of other people who might be reading this discussion.
The only population that matters in your comparison of people who have head injuries riding and head injuries in car accidents is people who both ride horses and drive/ride in cars. In fact, I would extend that and say those people must also always wear a seat belt and have a car equipped with air bags, as those are safety features already available to reduce the risk of injury, so any wearing of a helmet while driving would (theoretically) only provide a level of protection above that offered by already existing safety features.
In addition, the two sets of statistics you are trying to compare in your last post are not from the same, or comparable, data sets. As I already said, the data necessary for making the kind of comparison you keep trying to make is not available.
I tracked down the statistic from post #58. Turns out that’s the rate for nonfatal sports-related TBI-related Emergency Department visits.
The number you cite (TBIs caused by mvas 14.3%) includes both fatal and nonfatal TBIs.
And I say again, you are trying to compare two things that are not the same. Apples and oranges.
If you want to use TBI data from MVAs to convince me that I should wear a helmet while driving a car, you’re going to have to start by showing me the MVA-related TBI rate among individuals who always wear a seat belt and drive vehicles equipped with airbags.
By the way, that statistic from post #58 has been updated for children:
According to the CDC, between 2001 and 2009, falls from a horse were responsible for 15.3% of nonfatal sports-related TBI-related Emergency Department visits for individuals aged 19 and under.
And, because arguing with Palm Beach has gotten me off track from where I started, I will restate my position on this:
If you don’t want to wear a helmet, don’t. It’s your decision. But don’t try to say that wearing a helmet has no benefit, because that’s simply not true. Do an honest assessment of the risk. Just say this, instead:
If I fall off and hit my head, a helmet will help protect me from head injuries. However, I feel that the risk of that happening is small and I’m not willing to accept the negatives that I perceive to be associated with wearing a helmet in return for the small benefit that I perceive wearing a helmet offers.
Because really, that’s what non-helmet wearers are saying.
In any activity you can name, a small percentage of people will always get hurt.
The statistics above have been trotted out COUNTLESS times on COTH, and it still comes down to PERSONAL CHOICE.
There are auto accidents every day–thousands of them. Yet I’ve never yet heard anyone state what my odds are of getting killed in my car every time I drive; is it 1 in 1000? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 687,000? For the sake of argument, let’s say there is one fatality every 687,000 times someone turns the key and puts their car in gear. Is this going to prevent you from driving?
If you’re into playing the lottery, maybe it should. Those are about your odds AGAINST winning a significant amount of money.
I happen to wear a helmet riding, THESE days. Years ago, I often did not. I’ve probably had 2 or 3 good bangs on the noggin in my life, one of which happened on the ground with no helmet, one with the old-fashioned “hunt cap” ca. 1980, and one in the state of the art ASTM/SEI bucket. Didn’t happen to notice that anything hurt less in the latter, and yes I KNOW what all the doctors say, ad nauseum.
Right now no one can tell you what the odds are you’ll sustain a TBI (or even a fall) per horse ride using the car analogy. Is it 1 in 48? 1 in 749? 1 in 12,643?
I’m betting it’s pretty close to the last number, or even lower odds, and I’m betting that very few people, particularly non-jumpers in low-risk recreational riding, would find that number “scary” enough to make them change their ways.
Marketing today uses FEAR driven by statistics to sell almost everything. The original “helmet nazis” were Pony Club mothers in the mid-1980’s who got behind the manufacturer of the newer, “more protective” helmets of the time and got the “Pony Club Approved” standard adopted with the help of beaucoup lawyers. Manufacturers picked up the ball and ran with it from there, and rammed the ASTM helmets, which were just about universally detested when they came on the market for their bulk, weight and poor fit, down everyone’s throat. Frankly, the whole push has been driven by (a) helmet mfr’s. and (b) lawyers since Day One and they have won game, set, and match in the jumping sports. FOLLOW THE MONEY.
Since other people just don’t see the need, and since COTH is usually so relentlessly anti-“judgment” about other people’s choices, maybe it’s time to give this tedious subject a REST. Live and let live already! Mind your OWN hollow, seedy MELON!
[QUOTE=Rusty15;8353791]
And if you can afford a horse why the he!! are you on medicaid?[/QUOTE]
If you fall off your horse, suffer a TBI to your non-helmeted head and end up broke and unable to pay for your medical care, you will be on Medicaid. The tax-paying public will have to pay for someone to take care of you.
PS – I am a non-smoking, not overweight, healthy individual who does a lot of things to stay that way, including wearing a helmet, which has saved me twice from a head injury.
The following 20 sports/recreational activities represent the categories contributing to the highest number of estimated head injuries treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms in 2009.
Cycling: 85,389
Football: 46,948
Baseball and Softball: 38,394
Basketball: 34,692
Water Sports (Diving, Scuba Diving, Surfing, Swimming, Water Polo, Water Skiing, Water Tubing): 28,716
Powered Recreational Vehicles (ATVs, Dune Buggies, Go-Carts, Mini bikes, Off-road): 26,606
Soccer: 24,184
Skateboards/Scooters: 23,114
Fitness/Exercise/Health Club: 18,012
Winter Sports (Skiing, Sledding, Snowboarding, Snowmobiling): 16,948
Horseback Riding: 14,466
Gymnastics/Dance/Cheerleading: 10,223
Golf: 10,035
Hockey: 8,145
Other Ball Sports and Balls, Unspecified: 6,883
Trampolines: 5,919
Rugby/Lacrosse: 5,794
Roller and Inline Skating: 3,320
Ice Skating: 4,608
According to CPSC data, there were an estimated 446,788 sports-related head injuries treated at U.S. hospital emergency rooms in 2009.
*The above statistics include fatalities.
http://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/get_the_facts.html
In 2010, “TBI contributed to the deaths of more than 50,000 people.”
http://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/get_the_facts.html
In 2010, about 2.5 million emergency department (ED) visits, hospitalizations, or deaths were associated with TBI—either alone or in combination with other injuries—in the United States.
2,500,000 tbis
14,466 horseback riding related - this is .5% of all tbis caused by horseback riding, IF I did the math right.
You are over twice as likely to get a tbi playing basketball (34,692), and more likely to get a tbi at a Fitness/Exercise/Health Club (18,012 tbis). Maybe they should wear helmets?
http://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/get_the_facts.html
mva related tbi - 292,202 (including death)
non fatal mva related tbi - 275,800
You are 20x more likely to sustain a tbi in an mva than you are riding a horse.
So wear your helmet to and from the barn as well as while riding, if you are concerned about becoming a burden on society.
I’m not sure your math makes much sense, as I’m sure more people cycle and ride atvs or even play basketball than ride horses.
A helmet saved my life ( I would 100% definitely have been dead with out it ) it takes nothing to put one on and can have such a huge impact on your life !
[QUOTE=mp;8405970]
If you fall off your horse, suffer a TBI to your non-helmeted head and end up broke and unable to pay for your medical care, you will be on Medicaid. The tax-paying public will have to pay for someone to take care of you.
PS – I am a non-smoking, not overweight, healthy individual who does a lot of things to stay that way, including wearing a helmet, which has saved me twice from a head injury.[/QUOTE]
Oh WHOOPIE-Schnitzel on RYE!
You could still get rear-ended on the turnpike tomorrow morning, or flip off your treadmill, or find yourself on the wrong end of the gun for the next Random Senseless Shooting and be every bit as reeking dead as those of us (96%) NOT members of the Self-Righteous Superiority Health & Safety Virtue Cult. Give it a freakin’ REST.
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8406149]
http://www.aans.org/patient%20information/conditions%20and%20treatments/sports-related%20head%20injury.aspx
The following 20 sports/recreational activities represent the categories contributing to the highest number of estimated head injuries treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms in 2009.
Cycling: 85,389
Football: 46,948
Baseball and Softball: 38,394
Basketball: 34,692
Water Sports (Diving, Scuba Diving, Surfing, Swimming, Water Polo, Water Skiing, Water Tubing): 28,716
Powered Recreational Vehicles (ATVs, Dune Buggies, Go-Carts, Mini bikes, Off-road): 26,606
Soccer: 24,184
Skateboards/Scooters: 23,114
Fitness/Exercise/Health Club: 18,012
Winter Sports (Skiing, Sledding, Snowboarding, Snowmobiling): 16,948
Horseback Riding: 14,466
Gymnastics/Dance/Cheerleading: 10,223
Golf: 10,035
Hockey: 8,145
Other Ball Sports and Balls, Unspecified: 6,883
Trampolines: 5,919
Rugby/Lacrosse: 5,794
Roller and Inline Skating: 3,320
Ice Skating: 4,608
According to CPSC data, there were an estimated 446,788 sports-related head injuries treated at U.S. hospital emergency rooms in 2009.
*The above statistics include fatalities.
http://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/get_the_facts.html
In 2010, “TBI contributed to the deaths of more than 50,000 people.”
http://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/get_the_facts.html
In 2010, about 2.5 million emergency department (ED) visits, hospitalizations, or deaths were associated with TBI—either alone or in combination with other injuries—in the United States.
2,500,000 tbis
14,466 horseback riding related - this is .5% of all tbis caused by horseback riding, IF I did the math right.
You are over twice as likely to get a tbi playing basketball (34,692), and more likely to get a tbi at a Fitness/Exercise/Health Club (18,012 tbis). Maybe they should wear helmets?
http://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/get_the_facts.html
mva related tbi - 292,202 (including death)
non fatal mva related tbi - 275,800
You are 20x more likely to sustain a tbi in an mva than you are riding a horse.
So wear your helmet to and from the barn as well as while riding, if you are concerned about becoming a burden on society.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for this! And that’s only sporting activities; nothing much about falling off your stoop, your shoes, or your bathtub and ringing your chimes. :winkgrin: Seems to me it’s pretty far down in the pile of spit to worry about.
I feel safer wearing mine; but that doesn’t give me the right to tell anyone else what to do. Especially on the basis of THOSE numbers!
But by the logic of “mp” above, ALL of those activities should be outlawed because all those injuries might up the Medicaid rates. Wonder if folks with that mindset get their jollies by setting up “awareness” tents outside of every Dunkin’ Donuts or liquor store, so that EVERY single possible pleasure anyone could ever take in life is balanced off by their Grim Reaper’s balance sheet.
Hope someday all these “Crusaders” bore themselves into getting a life.
Just a quick FYI from clinical neuropsychology. The original information complied 30 years on traumatic brain injuries was done studying riders. They were a homogeneous group (young, well-educated women) and they predictably suffered brain injuries falling off their horses at shows.
They had more head injuries than the guys on the football team.
Helmets make a risky SPORT less devastating if something goes wrong.
Lady E: If you look at the list you have posted, most of the sports involve wearing helmets. It would be interesting to break it down into who was wearing helmets and got hurt compared to the someone not wearing a helmet.
I do not think I have ever heard anyone say thank goodness I was not wearing a helmet.
Nobody is saying you should not wear a helmet if you want to.
We are saying that wearing a helmet does not make you a better person than someone who chooses not to wear a helmet. Please keep the preaching and judgements to yourself.
I’m not going to bother wading into the larger debate, however I just want to point out that these statements are not statistically correct. The numbers you cite about are # of incidents. What you are missing, is the total number participating.
There are WAY more people playing basketball and cycling than riding a horse. So of course the total number of incidents of TBIs are going to be higher. The question is how does that translate as a percentage of the total number of people who participate?
Say a million people play basketball in the USA. That would mean that 0.034% of them suffer a TBI. So no, a helmet is not likely necessary, given that less than 1% of them are going to hurt their heads.
I don’t know the actual number, just providing this as an example to show how misleading relying only on the # of incidents is.
[QUOTE=toady123;8406483]
I’m not going to bother wading into the larger debate, however I just want to point out that these statements are not statistically correct. The numbers you cite about are # of incidents. What you are missing, is the total number participating.
There are WAY more people playing basketball and cycling than riding a horse. So of course the total number of incidents of TBIs are going to be higher. The question is how does that translate as a percentage of the total number of people who participate?
Say a million people play basketball in the USA. That would mean that 0.034% of them suffer a TBI. So no, a helmet is not likely necessary, given that less than 1% of them are going to hurt their heads.
I don’t know the actual number, just providing this as an example to show how misleading relying only on the # of incidents is.[/QUOTE]
Point taken, but it does not appear that the # of participants is tracked. Plus, it’s not really # of participants, but frequency, that is really important. But without the real numbers, it’s just a guess.
[QUOTE=wonderhorseguy;8406437]
Nobody is saying you should not wear a helmet if you want to.
We are saying that wearing a helmet does not make you a better person than someone who chooses not to wear a helmet. Please keep the preaching and judgements to yourself.[/QUOTE]
THIS^.
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8406491]
Point taken, but it does not appear that the # of participants is tracked. Plus, it’s not really # of participants, but frequency, that is really important. But without the real numbers, it’s just a guess.[/QUOTE]
It is not frequency that dictates your relative risk. You can’t say that “you are twice as likely to get a TBI playing basketball versus riding” because you don’t know the total sample size in each respective sport.
That statement would only be true if there were the same (total) number of basketball players and riders. I have to guess, since that data sets don’t appear to exist, that there are far more people playing basketball than riding horses. Thus, the risk of TBIs in basketball is likely MUCH lower than riding (even though the frequency of individual incidents is higher).
