No more TBs to South Korea?

[beowulf]

Do you not see “systemic problem” in QHs going to slaughter because, possibly, you are not at the kill pens or working tangentially with programs to help prevent abattoir endings for these horses?

That is a genuine question not meant to belittle you. I have the opposite experience where I am poignantly aware of how many QHs go through auctions to kill pens.

To give you an example of real experience of mine, I used to go to the Unadilla auction in NY. There are a lot of STBs , QHs and TBs there. Lots of grade horses too. Sometimes some draft and mule teams. Luckily, we have organizations in place that try to prevent the TBs there from going to slaughter (FLF, FLTAP, and Second Chance come to mind but are not exclusive), but I didn’t see much of a support network for the QHs and STBs that went through.

That is not to say the issue isn’t prevalent in TBs – it is – but there are so many aftercare avenues for TBs that just do not exist for QHs or STBs. At least with the TB industry, there is a big push towards aftercare that is just absolutely absent in AQHA. US Trotting does have aftercare options, NV does a wonderful STB program that has helped many STBs avoid an inhumane end. These posters are not saying that TBs going to slaughter is a non-issue in the states – what they are trying to show you, is that the industry is trying to fix a broken system and that if there is anything to get outraged at, get outraged at the lack of action and leadership from fellow registries who do not give one fig that their product ends up inhumanely destroyed.

I have a few failed foster horses in my family (TBs, STBs, a QH). Some through CANTER, some through other agencies. Get out there and see if you can make a difference!

[Equkelly]

@beowulf

Do you not see “systemic problem” in QHs going to slaughter because, possibly, you are not at the kill pens or working tangentially with programs to help prevent abattoir endings for these horses?

I grew up really close to new Holland so I’ve seen what goes there. Now, I live out west and it’s mostly all quarter horses at the auctions out here but that’s also because the equine population out here is also almost all quarter horses so that’s to be expected. Again, it’s surfer-tourist statistics.

A system that just breeds horses for careers for just the first 6 years of the animals’s life is just not a good system. It’s reckless to breed 20,000 foals when there will not be 20,000 homes when all of those horses retire in such a short period. It’s the same reason everyone was outraged about that guy in tiger king breeding tiger Cubs when they only had a purpose for the first 6 months of their lives. (Yes obviously that’s an extreme… same concept though)

Also let’s not make assumptions about me. COTH is so not entitled to details about my personal life.

[MorganSercu]

With these approximations and generalities, what do we actually know about horses shipped across U.S. borders for slaughter?

Here are the facts.

Between 2015 and 2019 a total of 355,821 equines were exported from the US to Mexico for slaughter, per USDA Market News data. October 2018 data obtained from AgriFood and Agriculture Canada/StatCan show that 92,992 equines were imported to Canada from the U.S. for slaughter between 2015 and 2018. Below is a chart detailing these numbers further.

US equines exported for slaughter, 2015-2019. Numbers obtained through USDA market report weekly summaries and StatCan via AgriFood-Agriculture Canada.

[MorganSercu]

https://www.horsecouncil.org/press-releases/us-horse-population-statistics/

• The most comprehensive number comes from the 2017 National Economic Impact of the US Horse Population conducted by the AHC Foundation which counts 1,013,746 horse owners owning or leasing farms housing 7,246,835 horses in the US.

• The Food and Drug Administration utilized both the AVMA survey and information from USDA’s periodic surveys of farm animal populations to estimate the U.S. horse population at 3.8 million. FDA explained that population estimates are important for helping determine potential eligibility for drugs to be used for “minor uses”.

Q: How many unwanted horses are there?

A: In 2005, the American Horse Council (AHC) estimated there were 9.2 million horses in the United States.

[Equkelly]

I do kind of want to touch on the whole comparing breed- bias to racism thing again because I’m very VERY uncomfortable with where that went.

Breed bias is not the same as racism and it’s extremely insensitive to insinuate they are comparable. Human races are not the same as horse or dog breeds. Horse and dog breeds both have different temperaments because they were selectively bread for different things over a years and years.

Humans were not. Humans can look different but are not fundamentally different “breeds” because of skin color. This is extremely problematic and troubling and I really think you should reflect on this.

[beowulf]

Before you try to deflect and gaslight as per your apparent MO on this forum, my point stands –

It is disingenuous to care only about the welfare of your breed of choice at an abattoir, versus the welfare of the animal as a whole. It is just as disingenuous as only caring about horses getting slaughtered in SK, while they just as often end up on dinnerplates in European countries.

Consider: if you are finding an unwelcoming reception here, it may be because of your own actions on this forum. People with real boots on the ground experience have told you that your perception of this industry are not true – consider learning from them so that the crux of the matter – the horses – benefit from your passion.

[Equkelly]

@beowulf

It is disingenuous to care only about the welfare of your breed of choice at an abattoir, versus the welfare of the animal as a whole. It is just as disingenuous as only caring about horses getting slaughtered in SK, while they just as often end up on dinnerplates in European countries.

Cool. Never said I don’t care about quarter horses going to slaughter, I just don’t see a systemic problem when I’m looking at the numbers and the system as a whole. Maybe we just learned to interpret data very differently.

@beowulf

Consider: if you are finding an unwelcoming reception here, it may be because of your own actions on this forum.

I’ve been ostracized for dumber stuff here. I don’t think anything of it. This place has a reputation for being a place for toxic groupthink. COTH frequently has bad takes.

[LaurieB]

@Equkelly

A system that just breeds horses for careers for just the first 6 years of the animals’s life is just not a good system. It’s reckless to breed 20,000 foals when there will not be 20,000 homes when all of those horses retire in such a short period. It’s the same reason everyone was outraged about that guy in tiger king breeding tiger Cubs when they only had a purpose for the first 6 months of their lives. (Yes obviously that’s an extreme… same concept though)

The notion that TBs are bred to be used for only the first six years of their lives exists only in your mind. I don’t know a single TB breeder who thinks that way. Or breeds horses with that model in mind. (And your comparison with the Tiger King’s cubs is as ridiculous as it is abhorrent.)

Just because TBs are no longer the A show hunter ride of choice, doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of other second careers available for sound, smart, athletic (and often inexpensive) horses. Eventing, polo, racetrack “ponies”, Pony Club, barrel racing and endurance come quickly to mind. I follow half a dozen of our former racehorses on FB. I (and other breeders) keep some as broodmares. A few have gone to friends. None are finished being good horses simply because they’re no longer racing.

Your position would be more credible if you weren’t making up “facts” to support it.

[Equkelly]

@LaurieB

(And your comparison with the Tiger King’s cubs is as ridiculous as it is abhorrent

Hard pill to swallow eh? I figured as much.

I never said many don’t have wonderful secondary careers… obviously most do. Also I never said anything about them going straight to the slaughterhouse immediately after the track.

There’s still too many of them born per year. Supply and demand. Stomp your feet all you want. I’m not wrong, I’m just saying things nobody wants to hear.

There’s nothing else to say here so save your outrage guys, just please try not to compare human races to horse breeds because that’s messed up even for this place.

[LaurieB]

@Equkelly

Hard pill to swallow eh? I figured as much.

Your insult isn’t hard to swallow. It’s simply, blatantly, false.

But feel free to keep patting yourself on the back.

[beowulf]

I really haven’t found that to be the case… and my start on COTH was very rocky!

COTH is a wonderful community. I have never found one where such a rich tapestry of human experience is so readily available; we have retired Olympians posting on this board, we have life-time welsh breeders, we have racing owners, stallion owners, western riders, people overseas , we have people who join and just want to do best by their horses. The wealth of knowledge and how freely it is exchanged among people who have made this their entire livelihood is amazing. The wild thing to me is the older I get, the more that “you don’t know what you do not know” circle gets ever wider. Your and my experience is but a blip in the vast array of horse knowledge out there.

There have been so many iterations of hot-air users coming through that it is easy to pick them from their peers - some change their tune and become regulars who have their own insights to share. Some are driven off. But one thing is certain and that is that there is an endless cycle of these characters on parade on COTH.

Do not mistake someone calling you out for cruelty or toxicity.

To come back to your point about 20,000 foals a year born without 20,000 homes, have you once acknowledged that there are countless aftercare programs in effect to help this? Have you ever been involved in any of them (RRP, TIP, CANTER, NV, etc)? What have YOU done to incentivize better aftercare for the TB breed, to promote ensuring every horse has a home? Are you donating any money to charities or organizations that specialize in aftercare – and, to merit, are you following any of the big talks at all in the racing industry right now? What do you think of the dramatic decrease in foals produced per year while the stud-fees are collectively getting higher and higher – how do you feel about the breeding cap, and how do you feel about places like Winstar that have capitalized on freshman sires and then sell them overseas leaving the “low market” breeders with a mare in foal that is “almost worthless”? How do you think the small-time breeders are doing right now, while racing is becoming more and more a rich man’s game? How are you helping them – because it is not the small time breeders that are dumping stock en-masse. What viable methods do you have for helping save the small-time breeders especially with the breeding cap in play? How about breeding for sales, which is a very real target market right now for small time breeders? How would you help reduce the numbers produced?

You may find this is not a single issue with a unilateral solution. There is a supply and demand for these horses as foals at the sales – the real issue is ten years down the line, where is that nice filly that sold for 100k at the Keenland sale and, better yet, how are you ensuring her future does not end at the abattoir?

[Mara]

@Equkelly

@LaurieB

(And your comparison with the Tiger King’s cubs is as ridiculous as it is abhorrent

Hard pill to swallow eh? I figured as much.

I never said many don’t have wonderful secondary careers… obviously most do. Also I never said anything about them going straight to the slaughterhouse immediately after the track.

There’s still too many of them born per year. Supply and demand. Stomp your feet all you want. I’m not wrong, I’m just saying things nobody wants to hear.

There’s nothing else to say here so save your outrage guys, just please try not to compare human races to horse breeds because that’s messed up even for this place.

If you have such animosity towards COTH, or are under the impression that COTH has fangs bared for you, why would you bother spending time here?

It’s an honest question, not a passive-aggressive suggestion to get lost (in case you’re reading it that way). I know I’d be disinclined to continue hanging around any group in the face of perceived mutual hostility.

[MorganSercu]

What observations do you have to make regarding the data I found and posted upthread?

[Equkelly]

@Mara

If you have such animosity towards COTH, or are under the impression that COTH has fangs bared for you, why would you bother spending time here?

It’s an honest question, not a passive-aggressive suggestion to get lost (in case you’re reading it that way). I know I’d be disinclined to continue spending time with any group in the face of perceived mutual hostility.

Easy, I have a very long “ignore” list. It’s pretty simple, I just don’t take criticism from people I wouldn’t accept advice from and these aren’t people I’d take advice from. I will say that for all it’s problems, coth is vastly more experienced and more knowledgeable than every other Internet forum and I do have way more positive interactions than negative ones so that’s why I stick around.

There’s just a lot of things in the horse world that are very normalized and people tend to think normalized = ethical and that’s just not the case. If I know plenty of trainers that are far more experienced than me and know way more than me but I’d still never board my horse with them because we don’t have the same welfare/ethical standards. Same idea on COTH.

The fact that I’m getting more backlash for a freaking tiger king comment than another user on this same thread is getting for comparing horse breeds to human races should be a clue.

[ASB_Stars]

I want to preface this by saying that it is not meant as an attack on anyone on here…

If there are 19K TBs being registered each year, what percentage make it to the track? What percentage pay their way there, and so have a career? Of the ones that don’t make it to the track, what percentage are finding homes in alternative sports?

Obviously, some are purpose bred for sport- but that is not the majority, by any means. EventerAJ is a great example of this, and also, because she is into eventing, would have an obvious conduit for her homebreds that are not Secretariat.

I do believe that there are some great safety nets for TBs- -I wish that there were more for ASBs- bu then, if memory serves, we only registered like 900 ASBs two years ago. I don’t know what the numbers were for last year.

[Willesdon]

@beowulf

… while they just as often end up on dinnerplates in European countries.

The EU has an absolute ban on imported American horse meat because there is a problem of drug contamination. Bute is totally banned for use in any animals destined for the human food chain in Europe.

[Texarkana]

@ASB_Stars

If there are 19K TBs being registered each year, what percentage make it to the track? What percentage pay their way there, and so have a career? Of the ones that don’t make it to the track, what percentage are finding homes in alternative sports?

The Jockey Club tracks how many foals make it to the track. Roughly 65-70% of a foal crop makes it to the track.

Source: http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=FB&area=psft

(Note, the most current data is the 2016 foal crop because they monitor until the 5 year old year before reporting)

How many horses paying their way varies regionally because paying their way in southern California or NYC looks quite different than paying their way in Wyoming, where purses are a fraction of what they are at major tracks. So the Jockey Club breaks it down regionally:

http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=FB&area=9

The national average is only $19k and change. The problem is, average earnings are only part of the picture. The horse may have brought in revenue from sales. The horse may have brought in revenue from claims. The horse may have a $150 day rate, or it might be running off the trailer for a one man (or woman) owner/trainer. The horse could be making its connections a ton in betting revenue.

Finding homes in alternative sports is where it gets hard to quantify. I don’t know who is tracking this or how you can even track it in some situations. But the first place I went to look for data is TAA, who reports that they have placed over 11,000 horses since 2012 (source). Of course, that number isn’t limited to just horses who don’t make the track. That number is also just through TAA organization, not private sales or unaffiliated organizations. For example, if you adopt a horse from CANTER it would be included, but if you buy one outright from CANTER’s trainer listings (which is how most people get horses via CANTER), it would not be included in that total.

The reasons for not making a start on the racetrack are hard to quantify, too. Some never make a start because they die as foals or young horses. Some show no talent. Some become injured. Some go straight to breeding (like in the case of a valuable filly who is worth more than they conditions where she would be successful). Sometimes an owner’s situation changes and they don’t have the $20-30k to get a horse to their first start. And countless other reasons.

Is there evidence that not making a start at the racetrack means the horse is more likely to end up at slaughter? Because from my experience, I don’t think that is necessarily true.

Edited: How do you guys get quotes to work right?

[MorganSercu]

@Texarkana

Edited: How do you guys get quotes to work right?

On my android phone I select the text and two options are available: copy (Android) or in the lower right corner in a “shadow” is quote. I chose quote.

[endlessclimb]

@beowulf

To come back to your point about 20,000 foals a year born without 20,000 homes, have you once acknowledged that there are countless aftercare programs in effect to help this? Have you ever been involved in any of them (RRP, TIP, CANTER, NV, etc)? What have YOU done to incentivize better aftercare for the TB breed, to promote ensuring every horse has a home? Are you donating any money to charities or organizations that specialize in aftercare – and, to merit, are you following any of the big talks at all in the racing industry right now? What do you think of the dramatic decrease in foals produced per year while the stud-fees are collectively getting higher and higher – how do you feel about the breeding cap, and how do you feel about places like Winstar that have capitalized on freshman sires and then sell them overseas leaving the “low market” breeders with a mare in foal that is “almost worthless”? How do you think the small-time breeders are doing right now, while racing is becoming more and more a rich man’s game? How are you helping them – because it is not the small time breeders that are dumping stock en-masse. What viable methods do you have for helping save the small-time breeders especially with the breeding cap in play? How about breeding for sales, which is a very real target market right now for small time breeders? How would you help reduce the numbers produced?

AAAAANNNNDDDDD crickets. She doesn’t love them enough to even own one, but BY GOD SHE’S PASSIONATE.

Give me a break.

[Simkie]

@Equkelly

The president of the NTRA estimated 7,500 tbs go to slaughter every year. For all we know that number could even be low because the source giving the estimate is biased. But even if it is 7500, there’s only 20,000 tb babies born a year so that means if we trust the president of the NTRA it’s at least 37.5% of TBs that end up going to slaughter.

This is not the way math works.

You’re dividing total number of Thoroughbreds to slaughter (which isn’t even an accurate number AT ALL, but let’s ignore that for now) by number of Thoroughbreds registered YEARLY.

If you want to know the ACTUAL percentage of Thoroughbreds going to slaughter, you need to divide # shipping by TOTAL population.

What you’re doing is analogous to taking number of people who die in a year over number of people born in a year and calling that an over all death rate of a population. Which, ta-da, is just as much of an error as what you’re trying to do.

I get that math is hard, but come on now.