Non official show photographer question

[vxf111]

from the prizelist…

<<EXCLUSIVE PHOTOGRAPHERS FOR THE 2014 DEVON HORSE SHOW
James Leslie Parker Doug Shiflet Alix Coleman Any other commercial photography, or advertisement thereof, taken of subjects within the
confines of the show ring without prior written consent from Show Management is expressly forbidden. Violation of this rule will be grounds for removal from the show premises. >>

Commercial is not defined but I would interpret it to mean selling photos to anyone for any reason or otherwise profiting from the photos.

[RaeHughes]

Come on, unoffical photographer! Give the OP the photos!!! (Get more business in future :)).

OP, I am not in the USA - but have recently lost a horse to a non-skin-cancer-sourced cancer (kidney). IF you dont mind, are you able to post a link to the story of your horse? Just for my interest …

[poltroon]

This is such a special circumstance that it seems heartbreaking that something cannot be worked out, with perhaps some payment going to the official photographer as well.

[vxf111]

He’s a pretty reasonable guy. I bet he’s peeved at unofficial photographer, not the OP. Course, in the end she’s the one missing out on the photos

[thesilverspoon]

If you loved the photos, I would book a session with the photographer and ask if she’d be willing to throw those photos in for free as well, since you’ll be paying for her services that are separate from the show.
Better yet, the photographer could give them to you for free based on your story and the fact she’s not legally allowed to make money off them, so what’s the loss? Still, if the person is a pro, I understand they have to put food on the table, hence why giving them some business might help things, plus give you even more photo memories

[Pipkin]

Eurgh, the photographers are all being petty.

Sorry but they are.

I’m an equine photographer - yes, there are all sorts of legal limitations and irritations, and it’s difficult not to tread on toes, but my selling point is understanding and capturing the bond between horse and owner, and if I was the official photographer I would have given you permission, and if I was the unofficial photographer I would have given you the photos for free, out of respect for that. It’s your blimmin horse!

I feel for you so much, this would drive me absolutely mad!!

[IvyHall]

[QUOTE=RaeHughes;7637402]
Come on, unoffical photographer! Give the OP the photos!!! (Get more business in future :)).

OP, I am not in the USA - but have recently lost a horse to a non-skin-cancer-sourced cancer (kidney). IF you dont mind, are you able to post a link to the story of your horse? Just for my interest …[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry for the loss of your horse .

If you subscribe to the chronicle online his story is in the June 16th issue.

Here is the Philadelphia inquirer article :
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20140526_Chemotherapy_gets_a_horse_back_in_competition.html

And the Upenn article:
http://www.vet.upenn.edu/about/news-and-events/publications/penn-vet-extra/penn-vet-extra-may-2014/thoroughbred-undergoing-cancer-treatment-to-compete-at-devon-horse-show

[RacetrackReject]

[QUOTE=IvyHall;7630326]
I’m pretty sure there is nothing that I can do about this but I thought I’d bring this up just in case.

I recently showed my horse at a large event and at the end of the show I was approached by a photographer who told me that she had taken photos of my horse and was hoping to send (sell) them to connections in Europe and that her connections would run a story on him. She asked for my email address and said she would be in touch.

Not long after the show she contacted me and asked if she could pass along some other photos I had of him. I said yes (after I got approval from that photographer). She also sent me a link to the photos of my guy that she had sent to the european connection. HOLY MOLY her images were absolutely gorgeous. Far and away the best pictures ever taken of my horse.

I asked to buy them and she said she could not sell them to me (a competitor) because she was not the official photographer at the event.

So am I just up a creek? Is there any way for me to get my hands on these images using “proper” methods? I sent her another email inquiring as to whether or not I could have a family member buy the photos and she never responded. I don’t want to continue to bother her about this if there is nothing to be done.

Thank you![/QUOTE]

When I have taken photos at a show that a competitor wanted to buy, I gave them a digital copy of the file and asked them to use the money they would have spent on my photo to purchase something from the show photographer. I wonder if the photographer would go for something like that.

[IvyHall]

I feel I have been taken advantage of.

I messaged the unofficial photographer yesterday and asked for some clarification on what was going on with the photos and while she has read my message I have yet to hear back.

At Devon (I had just gotten off my horse), she told me she would send me the photos she had taken of my horse, took my email address and said she would be in touch.

She later emailed me and asked that I provide her with additional photos of my horse and daughter, which I did (they were taken by a photographer who wanted to be credited if they were used but they were my personal photos).

I am disappointed but at least I have learned a lot about horse show photography and the differences between official and unofficial photographers.

I will not make this same mistake again.

[vxf111]

Did she write an article about your horse, or whatever specific it was she said she was doing?

[Chief2]

Depending on what she is doing with this will depend on whether she is violating the Devon rules. If she is a writer writing an article, and only gets paid for the article and not the photos, then she is in the clear. Which is what this sounds like. If she is a photographer submitting her photos in to a magazine and getting paid for the photos, then she’s not. Either way, the the show management may want to contact the publication or the photographer, and may put a stop to it.

If she is in the clear, then know that magazines usually hold first publication rights to accepted material. Usually those rights are for first publication, so once the material is published, the rights revert back to the owner of the photo. It can take a week to publish material, or it can take 6 months. During that time, the material cannot appear anywhere else (even FB) or the contract the writer/photographer has signed is violated. If this is the case, she may not want to jeopardize her paycheck by giving you access to the photo until it has been formally published. You can find out what rights the magazine holds over accepted material by going to the submission guidelines. Since you gave implied permission to use a photo of your own here, make sure it is for that one-time use only, and cannot be sold to any other publication. You should also be getting a free copy of the publication it is printed in as a courtesy from the publishing company. That is standard practice. Get in touch with the managing editor and ask that one be sent to you. If the photographer is hesitant in giving you any information about where these photos are to be published, contact the show management and put a stop to it. JMO.

ETA: It’s the family photo that has me more concerned than the one of the horse. You don’t want that traveling around.

[OverandOnward]

The magazine can send you copies of the photos, and probably will if you ask. Send an inquiry to them. Since they have legal ownership now, that is the best source without stepping into the spider’s web of show photographer rights and relationships.

I will hazard a guess that the unofficial photog is trying to walk between the raindrops of contracts and custom, as it were. She may have over-promised when she offered to send you the photos. She can’t, really, if she sold them. She shouldn’t based on not stepping on the official photog, but only because of her own pro status. If she were an amateur it would probably be different.

And, yes she may have stepped on the official show photo when she sold photos she took at the show. “Selling” means to anyone, including publications, in many instances.

AND … she doesn’t want to go too far and perhaps get chucked out by the show organizer the next time she visits. Photos of the show are in a magazine, but they were NOT taken by the official show photog. Theoretically that shouldn’t happen unless the photos were offered free (and maybe not even then). Thank goodness for her it’s in Europe and not many here will see it.

But none of that is your problem - who can publish what and where. That’s between the pros and the show organizer.

As I understand it, there really isn’t any legal action the Official show photog or anyone else can take if someone does sell photos from the show. The agreement is with the show organizer. It’s the organizer who is on the spot to legislate what the other photogs do, and the only means of doing that is to make it uncomfortable for them, up to the point of barring them from the grounds to stop any further photography. I suspect that’s what your unofficial photog is trying to manage while also selling those photos.

Great story! Calvin is a wonderful horse, glad I read about him.