Normalize instilling basic dressage skills into jumping horses

[IPEsq]

Anyone who trains anyone for the USET talent search finals could ride a second level test, likely some of third. Perhaps one thing that isn’t practiced as much is a smooth canter-walk. The horse I rode my last year in the Big Eq could totally have done a second level test well. And we basically did in one medal challenge class where the work off was to make up your own flat test in 2 minutes, and I showed things like extended trot, three loop serpentine in canter holding the lead, turn on the haunches, etc. And I won that class :). I had never done a dressage test save for one pony club event when I was a kid, but we practiced all of those things in schooling regularly.

And at USET finals after the flat phase they have everyone ride a flat test before pinning the phase. You were expected to know how to execute a certain collection of movements that they could choose from, more difficult than the regular part of the class which already required working gaits, counter canter, and lengthening in trot and canter.

I never showed at a dressage show until taking a baby horse out at training level 25 years later.

[JenEM]

My hunter trainer comes from an equitation background, is a big believer in correct flatwork, and does actually take dressage lessons. No doubt she could go do a 2nd level test. Heck, my low adult hunter has shown 1st.

Not everyone is jump-jump-jump all the time. Certainly not those who put a good foundation on their horses.

[NoHopeNoScope]

I mean… have you looked up what a second level dressage test entails? It’s a bit of a stretch to say that…

[Amberley]

I’m very familiar with what second level entails, lol.

[fivestrideline]

Seriously. Plenty of dressage riders get stuck perpetually at intro and First, meanwhile there are much-abhorred Hunter Riders that can easily do Second and parts of Third if asked

I wasn’t going to take the bait, but here is a list of people in my very much not high level hunter life that I know could walk in and show First and Second for sure and taught the skills as appropriate to their students:

• my hunter trainer in college
• two other trainers in that area I rode with
• the trainer my coach rode with as a child and we had regular clinics with
• my trainer up north

No I’m not going to name names. Several of those programs had dressage specific trainers on site that we took lessons with weekly (and showed our hunters at dressage shows!), or have a dressage coach that comes in ~monthly for private clinic type lessons.

It’s almost like basic Flatwork is needed to get around a jump course smoothly . There is a reason a horse in a program that fails to do this may canter like a freight train, avoid connection, fail to make the inside turn, be unable to do trot jumps, and generally fail to be a successful hunter/equitation/jumper horse.

[inandout]

Well, me, for one. My students regularly practice shoulder in, haunches in/out, leg yield, turn on haunches/forehand and more in flat lessons every week.

When I school their horses I do that plus more advanced stuff, half pass, even canter pirouettes on some of the upper level jumpers.

Your post was obtuse and indicative of someone who just has a chip on their shoulder about hunter/jumper trainers. Especially when there’s literally dozens of videos from clinics online that prove your statement wrong, even if it really is true that you’ve never seen it in person. You don’t have to like the hunters, but let’s not make blatantly untrue blanket statements.

[Angela_Freda]

@Amberley

Like who? I have never seen a hunter trainer who could ride Second Level dressage and few jumper trainers, although some can.

Michael Matz

[NaturallyHappy]

Bernie Traurig

[Amberley]

Michael Matz is 73, primarily a showjumper and switched to racing 25 years ago. Bernie Traurig is 79, was also primarily a showjumper and is not actively training hunters.

The statement I questioned was that all good hunter trainers did dressage- which they very demonstrably don’t. I see actual working A-show hunter trainers riding horses weekly and 95% of them can’t put a horse on the bit properly, much less ride Second Level. I’m sure some of the better eq kids could pick it up but they are on a different track.

[Salty]

I used to love watching the jumper warmups, especially when Michael Matz was riding. Doing good 3rd Level work with jumper length stirrups in a jump saddle. He was definitely not the only one. And I’m sure there are plenty today who can do the same.

The trainer where I galloped racehorses could do decent 1st Level work on the baby racehorses.

Honestly, the OP sounds like they have limited experience with hunters, jumpers, and perhaps other sports as well.

[ParadoxFarm]

@Salty

I used to love watching the jumper warmups, especially when Michael Matz was riding.

Me, too. When I was at the KY3DE watching the warmup for the KY Invitational GP, I was in awe. For instance, I watched Rodrigo Pessoa take his horse through a beautiful warmup with a gorgeous collected canter before taking her over fences. It was lovely. I have watched Margie Goldstein ride countless horses that could have easily done well in a more advanced dressage class. Now, I don’t as often watch hunter trainers, but MANY jumper riders use “dressage” basics all the time. The good riders do – which may be why you see so many at the top. If you’re looking at low-level riders that you think are not using dressage, maybe they are the type of rider who will never advance past a certain level just for that reason.

[greysfordays]

Just in my hobbit hole of southern California, I would list Jenny Karazissis, Carleton Brooks, Jamie Sailor, Nick Haness, Joie Gatlin, Emma Lindstrom, Shawn Casady.

I’ll concede that I see quite a few younger trainers, who are less focused on flatwork, coming up the ranks. We have lamented this trend ad nauseum on the forum. But they aren’t all we have. There are lots of younger folks who ride proper flatwork with the goal of balanced and rideable horses comfortable in the work. That’s really the goal right?

[onlyTBmares]

Good riders and trainers have always incorporated quality flatwork and dressage. I ride in a fair amount of clinics and audit even more. Everyone I have audited in the last couple of years has asked the advanced sections for lateral work and collection of some degree. Not in the 2’ sections necessarily (although Julie Winkle had the beginner group work a bit on leg yields which was cool because some of them had not learned it yet) but the 3’+ sections usually have collection, lengthening, shortening, shoulder in, maybe half passes. This is sort of a random selection of trainers, some super well known, some lesser. But to me, that suggests the industry as a whole prioritizes that. Not to say there aren’t crappy riders and trainers out there…

I do not think we need to harp on the OP though. I think she’s a teen who is just realizing how important proper flatwork/dressage is, and I say kudos to her!

[fivestrideline]

@onlyTBmares

I do not think we need to harp on the OP though. I think she’s a teen who is just realizing how important proper flatwork/dressage is, and I say kudos to her!

100%! The “AHA!” Moment can feel like such a breakthrough if you weren’t taught it from the beginning. And that should be celebrated!

[LSBC]

When I was little, we had a 3 lessons/week program and the first lesson was always entirely flatwork. Sometimes it devolved into jumping (like really working in a collected canter between a ground pole and a fence) but usually that was only if the trainer had taught about 50 flat lessons in the day before and needed to mix it up. Then when we brought dressage riders in to do clinics, we had all the basics down and could do most everything she asked - although I never quite did get the canter to walk. All of these clinics were on your run of the mill lesson horses.

As my trainer of 15 years has always said “Jumping is just flatwork with fences in between.” We were always expected to be solid on the flat.

[Fun_Size]

Concur with this list, would add Peter Lombardo and Kelly Jennings (Cellar Door).

The thing I miss the most from SoCal is honestly the ability to find a trainer that would work my rear off on the flat, without stirrups, without reins. Bareback.

And then I moved to Washington. Honestly the Arabian trainers worked me harder on the flat than my h/j trainer.

Part of the reason I had my first bad fall was lack of flatwork - me and horse both.

[KyrieNZ]

Yussssssssss, THIS

As above, dressage means training in French. Why wouldn’t you want a better trained ride for any discipline you participate in?

I lived in Bermuda when I was younger and had the week day ride on a horse owned by a busy corporate. I have a strong dressage background but happily hacked out as well. The owner said she had never cornered so well when jumping. Funny that

[173north]

I recently converted to dressage land from many years in h/j. Many hunter or jumper trainers I know in NJ and CA could ride a respectable second or third level test today and could ride a level up from that with a month of focusing on it and some help from a dressage pro to fine-tune the details. Similarly, plenty of good dressage pros I know could be jumping around a course competently in no time.

Lots of junior and amateur h/j riders in solid programs are actually doing “harder” movements than their peers in dressage programs - we use the movements as a means to an end, so they don’t have to be foot-perfect or “correct” in the way that a dressage judge would look for. Even as an amateur in my 20s, riding 2x per week and jumping .80 - .90, my standard flat ride included collecting & lengthening at all gaits plus shoulder-in, leg-yields, counter canter, and changes.

Does my dressage trainer looove my jumper-y and occasionally creative interpretation of the above? Not really, but I know the basics and the biomechanics and it just needs to be refined from there. Plus it’s all progressive… if you can do a leg-yield, shoulder-in and haunches-in on your jumper that’s the building blocks of half pass; if you can do a turn on the haunches on your hunter that’s the building blocks of a pirouette, etc.

[TatteredDaydreamer]

I’d second all of this. The barn I’m at practices all of these movements on a very regular basis and takes supplemental lessons with a dressage trainer herself. Really really helps the jumping to have solid flatwork installed!

[BroncoMo]

@Jackie_Cochran

A rider can train a horse to do decent flat work without getting into “dressage”.

I do a lot of flat work in Forward Seat. My hunt seat teacher has no problems with this since I do stuff like 3-speeds of whichever gait, turns on the forehand, turns on the hindquarters, on my good days some leg yield, on contact or off contact.

The horses I ride get trained for obedience on the flat. The problem is keeping the horse from getting bored or getting upset from harsh aids. I expect the horses I ride to obey me even if they are “just” lesson horses. My riding teacher/barn manager approves.

Obedience to the aids can be trained in any humane riding system. “Dressage” is not required, just good training to the aids and good training for obedience.

Signed a Forward Seat rider whose horses obey me cheerfully and immediately (usually. horses.)

This. I never considered good flatwork to be “dressage”. I just considered it being educated. No attempt at tooting my own horn but I’ve known how to do some of the movements in this thread that are referred to as being “dressage” since I was 7 or 8. My education came from a western all around trainer and refined by a hunter/english all around trainer; breed show people… gasp, the horror!

I never considered shoulder/haunches in/out, leg yields, half pass, turns on the forehand/haunches, and counter cantering to be some mystical thing that can only be taught by a dressage coach but rather flat work foundational basics taught by an educated coach

I do see some in the open hunter land (maybe it’s in the jumpers too, not my cup of tea so I don’t watch/pay attention) who can’t sit a canter, can’t balance around a turn, can’t set up a lead change, and rather just careen around the corners, plow in to lead changes, and hope/pray to get the correct leads on departures. I never once thought to myself “gee if they would just lesson with a dressage coach, they could create a more balanced ride”. I just think “if they had a bit more education in foundational work, biomechanics, and body control, they wouldn’t be NASCARing and flailing around”.

So IMHO, better quality and more educated flatwork should be normalized. Kudos though to the OP for noticing these things; I just don’t think a strictly dressage coach needs to be employed to accomplish this, but rather an education in a proper foundation.