To add something to @McGurk’s great post - schooling events can be a real crap shoot when it comes to safety too. It seems weird to me that someone who screams the rally call of safety (which is a good thing) would be so for schooling events. Or maybe they are lucky enough that the schooling events in their part of the world are well run on safe courses.
There is one schooling level event near me. I have heard some scary things about the fences and courses. I don’t think it is a good idea to introduce people to a sport using courses and fences that are less than safe. (Rotting jumps, jumps located in places that if jumped slightly wrong can end in disaster, holes on the course that are not well marked.)
If rated shows could/would add schooling divisions then there would be a level of safety that is important for people learning.
I do think it is fair to say that when running a rate event that has more entries than spots that you will limit the number of riders who can enter the unrated division so there are available spots in the rated divisions.
The schooling events not run on property that also hosts recognized events have almost died out in this area for a number if reasons. I do think safety of fences/course design/ footing played a part in at least some cases. We now see water/banks/ditches on lower level courses in part because almost every venue already has them built since they run recognized events at Training or higher, so they are already available (water/ banks) or easily built and in demand for schooling (small friendly ditches). Thirty years ago when I was a pony clubber doing Novice, the only unrecognized event that I went to that had an actual water jump was the C pony club rally at Fair Hill. Most of the other events were run over a mix of hunting fences (logs/coops/ hunt rails) and stuff someone’s dad had knocked together. I actually think looking back that they were much scarier than anything you would see on a recognized Novice today (blue plastic barrels, tires, sawhorses, dead Christmas trees, astroturf, a selection of leftover renovated lumber from people’s homes). There weren’t a lot of combinations or related distances though.
There are several recognized events in Area 2 that already run a starter division or two (usually 2’- 2’3 and 18"). It’s equivalent to an opportunity class at a recognized dressage show, with no requirements for membership or drug testing or USEA fees. Pretty much any event has the ability to add these additional divisions.
I haven’t competed in years, since my gelding developed respiratory problems that made trailering and stalling problematic, but back when we were competing, the one schooling event we did at BN was monstrous. I’m taking about a huge ditch filled with shiny black dirt, a drop fence that was full height, but the landing was two feet lower than the takeoff (luckily no one fell), and a very slippery water entrance. Definitely not a confidence builder for either of us.
I have long thought that there should be actually useful course ratings, instead of the vague “average” that most seem to get. Something like “blue circle = suitable for the first time at this level” to “double black diamond = championship/testing if you’re ready to move up”. I think it would provide both useful information for competitor and would also allow organizers to track what kind of courses are being provided.
You must have been at our local schooling event where the organizer stapled a red checked tablecloth and paper plates to the BN/N picnic table jump for decoration. On a windy day.
After half the novice division was eliminated at that fence, they removed the flappy tablecloth for the BN so nobody died.
This, but add that the end result of this process is losing the most inviting and confidence building course types for young horses–and I’d argue those are the same courses that are the most confidence building for new riders, too. That’s a big loss to the sport.
I want to give a shout out to the venues I know of in Area 3(ish) that are providing great schooling opportunities: school the course before you run it the next day at a schooling show.
Poplar Place, Hamilton GA
Chattahoochee Hills, Fairburn GA
Stable View, Aiken SC
MTPC @ Percy Warner Park, Nashville
Flying Cross Farm, Skylight KY (Louisville has an excellent “Farm” schooling show series
Add to the list if you know of others!
One of the things I think that’s happening is these organizers are finding these little events without the USEA breathing down their necks are good money makers–especially those with permanent stabling. Riders pay less for the entry, but then add on an additional amount for the schooling options. There are big advantages to allowing the XC Starter to double up the jump judge for the first fence, etc. so things are easier and cheaper to run.
While I long for a good old basic 2’6-3’ galloping course without the technical questions at least with the schooling the day before you can jump the lower level option before you ask the harder question. Don’t get me wrong I love Poplar Place–a couple weeks ago at their schooling event we competed over what was likely their BN from the last recognized they ran–but every fence on the BN course had a terrain question, usually downhill. That made it a really challenging ride for the green rider I’m working with, and I would not have been happy to have her out there without the prep. I wish we had locally a bunch of schooling options on that question, but we don’t.
The point here is that there are plenty of riders figuring out how to deal with the big gaps that the USEA doesn’t seem interested in filling, and I’m happy to leave them out of the payday.
I think it’s mostly the changes at the top of the sport trickling down. If each level is to prepare you for the technicality of the next, it never ends.
Up until ~2005 I always started my horses at N. Those courses were appropriate for a first time out–straightforward, with fairly simple, solid jumps, rarely combinations. 3’ is nothing for most OTTBs.
Now to get that level of simplicity, you are looking at the 2’/2’3 “starter” unrec levels. Like many of the older (eek) folks on this thread, I totally miss the old novice as well as the old relationship between height and technicality (why does simple mean very small?).
BUT, this isn’t the 90s and if we want to prepare our horses for 2021 training level (or 2021 CCI**** or whatever our goals are), each level needs to prepare us for the next. I don’t see BN/N changing unless changes at the top demand it.
FWIW I think adding a level in the middle (modified) in addition to just making additional lower jump levels is a great idea. I’ve done a number of them and really appreciated being able to ride those questions there vs endlessly increasing what is asked at training.
But as each level gets harder we are going to keep searching (down) for that introductory level.
A level between does not have to equal another height of jump, either. It could mean same height jump as the next level, with less engineering in the questions associated with the jumps.
Which is (or was for eons) the difference between the old Advanced 3 star and 4 star. Same jump heights but greater technicality and more of it at the 4 star (which is now 5 star.)
I have often wondered why more black flag options aren’t offered at lower levels. If you want to create a challenging novice obstacle for the forever novice entries, black flag it and put a generic coop off to the side for first-timers. It’s fine to push the boundaries if a safe, simple option is also available.
I think this type statement - which is not uncommon - can be very misleading to people new to any variety of horse sport involving jumping who don’t know what they don’t know. I am not qualified by either actual or first hand experience to comment knowledgeably on many of the points being made in this thread, but I have been around a LOT of youth oriented horse activities over more than a decade. I can think of a lot of first hand examples where this type generalization has been at the root of bad decisions with respect to moving up to higher levels when it wasn’t in the best interest of the horse - or the rider - or the pair.
I know to many options can be difficult for course designers, but I still feel like there are a lot of ways to add say Novice type questions as options.
For example - one show had the water flagged only on the way out and in such a way that a horse could run through or do a step up.
Another obstacle was flagged so you could step up and step down or just run up the hill and step down.
You can also add a jump in a line or make the Novice jump in an existing line an option at Beginner Novice.
In this way, you can make the course a bit more complex for those that want it, but more straight forward for those that prefer that, for whatever reason.
You are missing one of the big reasons why some people want more complexity in the lower levels: they want XC to have an affect on the final placings. They don’t want eventing to “be a dressage show.” This requires that some people/horses in the division have problems. The people that want this are competitive and first priority is they themselves go clean. Second priority is others don’t. I assure you that if you put out the easier options they’ll all, every one of them, choose to jump it.
Actually, speed makes a huge difference: it is not always just about height. I’ve sat at the same fence used for both 2* and 3* and the necessary speed increase at 3* made a simple brush fence very much more challenging.
I think this type statement - which is not uncommon - can be very misleading to people new to any variety of horse sport involving jumping who don’t know what they don’t know. I am not qualified by either actual or first hand experience to comment knowledgeably on many of the points being made in this thread, but I have been around a LOT of youth oriented horse activities over more than a decade. I can think of a lot of first hand examples where this type generalization has been at the root of bad decisions with respect to moving up to higher levels when it wasn’t in the best interest of the horse - or the rider - or the pair.
Sorry, I’m really not trying to encourage recklessness or poor decisions.
I guess what I was getting at is that back when novice was much simpler in design, it didn’t feel like stretch to ride a fairly green horse off the track around a course of 3’ logs/coops/brush jumps etc. Or for a fairly green rider to start there–my first event was novice, the lowest level in 1993, and I’m sure I was a much less skilled rider than your average BN rider today.
Now that 3’ is tied to greater technicality (here in area 2 your average novice would include a half coffin, a bank combo, a faux corner, etc.) and you have to go to 2’ to get simple/green appropriate, it makes 3’ feel huge and far away, when it didn’t used to.
The time from track–>novice has probably doubled/tripled in the past couple decades, and it’s a much harder milestone.
It isn’t wrong, but that person would likely get more bang for their buck horse showing (H/J or dressage) vs eventing. A show gives you the experience with nerves, crazy warm ups, etc. with the added benefit of multiple opportunities to get into the ring and practice that day.
I honestly think that is a more appropriate first outing for most green horses or riders to get comfortable in a competitive environment quickly.
I agree that hunter/jumper shows are a good first experience, partially because you can do more than one class so you can keep going over the fences in a show environment. I did a winter circuit with my mare way back in the day and we did a lot of trotting 2’3" because everything was weird and different and she needed to learn to focus on going over the jump.
BUT…that doesn’t prepare you for going over a stadium course in the grass with warm up right there and part of cross country in view, along with uneven terrain - all in a show environment.
Stadium also isn’t going to prepare you for leaving cross country warm up and all the new friends you just made and going out alone over jumps. Cross country schooling doesn’t really do that either since if you are riding with someone else, you are generally all going over jumps in a group. If you go out by yourself (with a ground person), there’s no new friends at warm up to leave.
So, depending on the horse, there are a lot of factors involved in deciding for one reason or another to be able to go over jumps at a trot.
Then those riders can’t complain that Novice isn’t preparing them for Training!
I admit that not having options forced me to take XC fences that scared the bejeezus out of me, then what a sense of accomplishment I had for having tackled them. Maybe the only answer is what an event in MI did, have an A and B section to enter. IIRC something like, BN Section A max 2’ no water crossing, BN Section B max 2’6". This may have been before BN was a recognized division. But in our case here: Novice section A for those new to the level; section B (pick one) for those preparing to move up/ for those experienced at the level–or along those lines. I’m picturing both sections sharing moderate fences; when B has a maxed out fence, A would share one with BN.
Have any of you’all ever flagged before??? time to start showing up early in the week!
S, BN, N, T, M, P x 16-20 fences + A/B/C’s = about 150 fences. I am all for options but I think it is easier if it’s an unrecognized only running 3 divisions. And you have to have a very happy course designer who thinks about a fence judges viewpoint for the options.
time to start showing up early in the week!