Menu

Stay in Touch
Sign up for ENews
Subscribe Now

Unlimited access >

Menu

Numbers for a Clinic Group

Hunter/Jumper
#21

[QUOTE=findeight;7219274]
Well, with 3 you are n the semi private lesson area and I guarantee you the clinician costs more then a resident trainer and the organizer has to cover the plane ticket, rent car, hotel etc on top of what the clinician wants for conducting the actual clinic sessions.

Limiting each group to 3 or 4 is not real practical and would cost each rider considerably more then 6 to 8 riders. You can arrange a private or semi private lesson sometimes with the clinician. If you don’t want to be with more then 4 others, that might be a better choice.

organizers I know need about 20 riders to break even when you add having to shut the barn down lesson wise over a weekend. All depends on the clinician and hosting barn. If its a big arena with a good clinician, 6 is doable. I’ve ridden with 8 a few times, that’s pushing it unless they are all pretty much at the same level. More then 6 with any serious jumping is too many but can work in the beginner section if they aren’t doing much other then ground poles/cross rails.[/QUOTE]

Really amazing how the dressage clinics manage to have 6 or 7 PRIVATE lessons a day for less money than it costs to ride amidst a 9-horse snake.

Weekend taking two private rides with someone who trained multiple Pan Am medalists in dressage and flies in from Germany: $400. (Total clinic participation= 7 privates a day for a total of $1,400)

Two rides in a Geoff Teall clinic with a small herd of other people: $500.
(Total clinic participation: 8 riders per 3 sections, total of 24 riders = $12,000 OMG HOW COULD THEY POSSIBLY MAKE MONEY OMG)

Honestly I think 95% of the hunter/jumper world just refuses to do math.

#22

[QUOTE=findeight;7219274]
Well, with 3 you are n the semi private lesson area and I guarantee you the clinician costs more then a resident trainer and the organizer has to cover the plane ticket, rent car, hotel etc on top of what the clinician wants for conducting the actual clinic sessions.

Limiting each group to 3 or 4 is not real practical and would cost each rider considerably more then 6 to 8 riders. You can arrange a private or semi private lesson sometimes with the clinician. If you don’t want to be with more then 4 others, that might be a better choice.

organizers I know need about 20 riders to break even when you add having to shut the barn down lesson wise over a weekend. All depends on the clinician and hosting barn. If its a big arena with a good clinician, 6 is doable. I’ve ridden with 8 a few times, that’s pushing it unless they are all pretty much at the same level. More then 6 with any serious jumping is too many but can work in the beginner section if they aren’t doing much other then ground poles/cross rails.[/QUOTE]

Really amazing how the dressage clinics manage to have 6 or 7 PRIVATE lessons a day for less money than it costs to ride in a hunter/jumper clinic amidst a 8-horse snake.

Weekend taking two private rides with someone who trained multiple Pan Am medalists in dressage and flies in from Germany: $400. (Total clinic participation= 7 privates a day for a total of $2,800 the weekend)

Two rides in a Geoff Teall clinic with a small herd of other people: $500.
(Total clinic participation: 8 riders per 3 sections, total of 24 riders = $12,000 OMG HOW COULD THEY POSSIBLY MAKE MONEY OMG)

Honestly I think 95% of the hunter/jumper world just refuses to do math.

I am currently flying someone in from TX for a h/j clinic; the airfare is $320, I will drive him around and house him, his per lesson fee is $85 and unless my calculator is lying he will still make money. Not $12,000 a weekend but we shall suffer through. Viva la revolucion!

#23

[QUOTE=Janet;7218291]
It depends a lot on the clinician, and his/her style of teaching. As a general rule, I would not want more than 4.

I did a clinic with Joe Fargis with 6, and I won’t be doing it again. I learned some good exercises and ONE thing about me and my horse.

I learned FAR MORE watching him give a couple of semi-private lessons at his barn, and watching him warm up at shows.

I also depends on how long the session is. If it is a 2+hr session, 6 can be OK with the right instructor.[/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree with this. After spending big bucks ($400-$600) for clinics where I was one of 6 or more riders, I adopted the “no more than 4” rule as well (although I will audit, of course.)

Interestingly enough, I had the same experience as Janet with respect to a JF clinic; I was one of 7 and while I did take a couple good exercises away from the experience, the reality is that I could have learned them just as well as an auditor, spending $50 instead of $600.

#24

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7219674]
Really amazing how the dressage clinics manage to have 6 or 7 PRIVATE lessons a day for less money than it costs to ride in a hunter/jumper clinic amidst a 8-horse snake.

Weekend taking two private rides with someone who trained multiple Pan Am medalists in dressage and flies in from Germany: $400. (Total clinic participation= 7 privates a day for a total of $2,800 the weekend)

Two rides in a Geoff Teall clinic with a small herd of other people: $500.
(Total clinic participation: 8 riders per 3 sections, total of 24 riders = $12,000 OMG HOW COULD THEY POSSIBLY MAKE MONEY OMG)

Honestly I think 95% of the hunter/jumper world just refuses to do math.

I am currently flying someone in from TX for a h/j clinic; the airfare is $320, I will drive him around and house him, his per lesson fee is $85 and unless my calculator is lying he will still make money. Not $12,000 a weekend but we shall suffer through. Viva la revolucion![/QUOTE]

Well, IMO, the top H/J clinicians cost at least 2x what you calculated for the dressage instructor. They also charge a flat rate for the whole clinic rather than a per rider/lesson charge. Any smart clinician is going to charge this way because they get paid for their time no matter what. It is up to the clinic organizer to figure out what that means cost-wise and number of riders it will take to at least break even and it is they who will take the hit if the clinic doesn’t fill, rather than the clinician.

Usually the clinician puts a cap on the number of riders in a group. If that number is 8 and the organizer has that much interest, well, more power to them. If people feel like they aren’t getting their monies worth, they won’t sign up and there won’t be 8 people per session.

(It’s also a little odd to compare to dressage as I am not sure I’ve EVER seen anything other than a private dressage lesson. I’m sure they exist, especially at the lower levels, but I don’t think it is very common.)

#25

[QUOTE=Lucassb;7219724]

Interestingly enough, I had the same experience as Janet with respect to a JF clinic; I was one of 7 and while I did take a couple good exercises away from the experience, the reality is that I could have learned them just as well as an auditor, spending $50 instead of $600.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t say my experience was different, although I did like feeling how the exercises and progression affected my particular horse. Joe would not be one on my regular schedule for clinics…but it’s not really because of the numbers in the session, but more because I think in that setting he teaches to an agenda.

#26

I find it interesting that h/j clinicians, many of whom have no international experience, charge more than dressage clinicians who are international medalists, have been through extensive teaching and training qualifications systems, are qualified to judge the Olympics and many times must be flown in from abroad.

And apparently we just can’t get out of bed for less than $12,000 a weekend.

(And 90% of the people who are blindly paying for this without DARING to question it are people hopping around the 2’6". The last time I did a h/j clinic Jen Alfano was riding in my section and the whole group did …2’6". Olympic clinician, Jen Alfano riding in it, …2’6". That was when I finally said enough is enough. When you go to a dressage clinic and stick around to audit you have a good chance of seeing FEI level work.)

#27

[QUOTE=Janet;7219410]

When I was running jumper clincs, you could chose whether you wanted private, semi private, or group- with different prices. I[/QUOTE]

My friend, who is an eventer and clinician, does this. And he limits his groups to 3 riders. Everyone has an option. The only down side is to the clinician, the majority of people at my barn want private lessons, so he makes a lot less money per day than if he did large group lessons. The BNTs and Olympians that have done clinics at my barn would have at least 4 groups of 6-8 riders in each, they make a lot more money per day.

#28

You are smart enough that I think you would have an easy answer for that…it’s simply supply and demand. H/J has a long established history in the U.S and currently has the largest population of riders in the english disciplines. More popularity, means higher paychecks for those at the top levels. Also, Hunters aren’t an international discipline, so how do you expect Hunter clincians to get international experience?

International Experience for top dressage riders is kind of a “d’uh.” Most top dressage riders are from other countries (Europe) which makes “international experience” quite easy to obtain. They might only have to drive an hour to be considered “international.” Also, high level training is a lot easier to come by abroad. It is still a relatively new sport with the masses in the U.S.

And apparently we just can’t get out of bed for less than $12,000 a weekend.
And 90% of the people who are paying for this are people hopping around the 2’6". The last time I did a h/j clinic Jen Alfano was riding in my section and the whole group did …2’6".

You would begrudge someone for getting the highest pay day they can? Isn’t that good business practice? why offer their services for less than what people are willing to pay?

What does it matter to you if people want to pay $400 to ride at 2’6"? I’m not sure why that concerns you, especially since you were doing it as well. I’m also guessing that Jen Alfano was riding a green horse is your section as you must’ve been.

#29

[QUOTE=RugBug;7219856]
You are smart enough that I think you would have an easy answer for that…it’s simply supply and demand. H/J has a long established history in the U.S and currently has the largest population of riders in the english disciplines. More popularity, means higher paychecks for those at the top levels. Also, Hunters aren’t an international discipline, so how do you expect Hunter clincians to get international experience?

International Experience for top dressage riders is kind of a “d’uh.” Most top dressage riders are from other countries (Europe) which makes “international experience” quite easy to obtain. They might only have to drive an hour to be considered “international.” Also, high level training is a lot easier to come by abroad. It is still a relatively new sport with the masses in the U.S.

You would begrudge someone for getting the highest pay day they can? Isn’t that good business practice? why offer their services for less than what people are willing to pay?

What does it matter to you if people want to pay $400 to ride at 2’6"? I’m not sure why that concerns you, especially since you were doing it as well. I’m also guessing that Jen Alfano was riding a green horse is your section as you must’ve been.[/QUOTE]

If people want to do it it is absolutely fine with me.
I just think they could probably be smarter consumers if they had better math and cost/benefit analysis skills.

If they want to pay $500 to ride in a snake in front of Someone Famous and do two trips at 2’6", be my guest.

I will use the same amount of money to fly someone (with international experience btw) in from TX to my barn for a weekend and still have enough left over for two additional private lessons with Jen Alfano when she’s home.

Riding is expensive no matter what you do but you get a lot more for your same buck if you think a little bit. But by all means, carry on.

#30

Well, it depends on what your goals for a clinic are, right?

If your goal is to be able to say that you rode with ______ (Famous BNT), then who cares how much you’re spending and what you’re doing in that time? I’ve met plenty of people over the years who fall into this category.

I would venture a guess that most people seeking a truly educational experience vote with their dollars. I ride with Greg Best every time he’s near because I get every penny’s worth of instruction tailored specifically to both me and the horse I’m sitting on (regardless of who else is in the clinic), and the sessions are limited to 3 horses. I don’t know how many times I’ve ridden with him over the last 6 or 7 years…20 or so clinics/shows with 1-3 horses at each. And I haven’t EVER walked away wondering what I just spent my money on.

I’ve ridden with a lot of other BNTs through the years (20-25 other clinicians, maybe more?). I’ve paid stupid amounts of money to ride with international riders and Olympic medalists who turned out to not have the abilities to a) teach (though no questioning that they’re incredible riders) b) teach to a variety of horse/rider types in one session and/or c) teach to a large number of people without falling into the rut of focusing on the worst or best case scenario horse/rider combo. Out of all of the clinics I’ve ridden in there are TWO clinicians I bring repeat business back to. One is Greg and the other is a local BNT.

To the OP’s point, I personally prefer a clinic with sessions limited to 3 people. But I’m sure there are clinicians who can make it worthwhile with 6+ in a session (though I don’t believe anyone can be effective with that many in a 2-hour session). I haven’t ever come across one of those people, though, and can’t imagine planning to go to a clinic with that many in a session…unless it was just plain curiosity about that particular trainer.

Not sure what relevance the amount of money they make has to anything else. Someone who’s achieved something special (be it an Olympic medal, international success, or national success) deserves to charge whatever they can get for their clinics. You’d sure have to pay me through the nose to convince me to be on the road that much…not that anyone would want my services even if I offered, but having traveled that much for work proved to me that I couldn’t hold up to it without something to gain (monetarily speaking). And then there’s the additional fact that being on the road means putting your home business on hold while you teach. And I can’t imagine that the ones who put 15 riders in a session and charge $1000 per rider and then make them snake along together can possibly be successful clinicians. The riders would have to get SOMETHING out of it or the clinician would burn through their customer base in short order (not saying there aren’t a handful of exceptions out there). So I’m not sure why there’s a cry for h/j people to do math. I do it. I give money to someone who gives me a great deal of insight and development planning in return. I don’t go back to the others.

And my assumption is that someone who’s charging you airfare, is willing to stay in your house, and then charges next to nothing for lessons is doing YOU a favor and helping YOU out for some reason. There’s a big difference between being personally invested in another individual’s success and running a business adhering to a profitable business model.

#31

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;7220167]
And my assumption is that someone who’s charging you airfare, is willing to stay in your house, and then charges next to nothing for lessons is doing YOU a favor and helping YOU out for some reason. There’s a big difference between being personally invested in another individual’s success and running a business adhering to a profitable business model.[/QUOTE]

While this person is indeed an old friend, HE asked ME to set up a clinic, and the math still works out to a profit. All of the dressage clinicians’ math (and believe me, all of the dressage clinicians who fly in from Europe to all parts of the country to teach a day of privates at $200 a ride are adhering to a profitable business model and not just doing me personal favors) also works out to a profit and yet they are doing 8 privates a day for a fraction of the total take on a h/j clinic.

But I have long wondered why it costs $100 a day to groom a horse at a hunter/jumper show and if the same horse goes down the road to a dressage show the fee is a fraction. I have personally groomed and cared for my own horse at both hunter and dressage shows and I can assure you he gets the same bath and the same hay regardless but somehow all the customers on the hunter forums SWEAR UP AND DOWN that their trainers will go broke if they don’t charge these astronomical fees.

At some point it is exactly what you say: the trainers charging the absolute most they can get away with, and the customers being all too willing to blindly fork it over. Which, I mean, is their prerogative but they do play a part in the prices they are charged.

Which is fine.
I play a part in the prices I am charged too and I get some pretty sweet deals by comparison. I am more than happy to share how I do it, and also to make excellent clinicians available to everyone else in my local area for, as you say, “next to nothing.”

However if somebody wants to justify astronomical prices by somehow asserting that “no one will make any money otherwise, such prices are necessary for the clinic to even run in the black,” then no. The math does not support your conclusion. The clinic was running in the black several thousand dollars ago. Airfare, facility rental, a hotel and insurance are not $10,000 if we could just rejoin reality for a minute here. The rest of the money is people’s choice to get on that hamster wheel and pay it.

#32

[QUOTE=RugBug;7219856]

International Experience for top dressage riders is kind of a “d’uh.” Most top dressage riders are from other countries (Europe) which makes “international experience” quite easy to obtain. They might only have to drive an hour to be considered “international.” [/QUOTE]

Just recording this worldly bit of dogma for posterity :dead:

Seriously naive

  • or just willfully ignorant :confused:

By your definition someone could flit back & forth across the US/Canada or US/Mexico border & easily obtain that"international experience" - which in turn, makes for a great many "international experience"d dressage riders in both the US & Canada & Mexico … who knew! :tickled_pink:

#33

[QUOTE=BAC;7219830]
My friend, who is an eventer and clinician, does this. And he limits his groups to 3 riders. Everyone has an option. The only down side is to the clinician, the majority of people at my barn want private lessons, so he makes a lot less money per day than if he did large group lessons. The BNTs and Olympians that have done clinics at my barn would have at least 4 groups of 6-8 riders in each, they make a lot more money per day.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I had the same result, even when I raised the prices on the privates.

#34

[QUOTE=alto;7220271]
Just recording this worldly bit of dogma for posterity :dead:

Seriously naive

  • or just willfully ignorant :confused:

By your definition someone could flit back & forth across the US/Canada or US/Mexico border & easily obtain that"international experience" - which in turn, makes for a great many "international experience"d dressage riders in both the US & Canada & Mexico … who knew! :tickled_pink:[/QUOTE]

Yes…they could. It would be international experience, would it not? :wink: and I’m sure some people have indicated they have international experience by doing just that. Someone mentioned a local pro on one thread who says she’s ridden with some really big names because she has a subscription to Equestrian Coach.com.

However, we both know that that is not what was meant and that you understood it. If you are living in Germany, international experience is a whole lot easier to obtain than if you are living in the U.S. If meup meant FEI experience, she should’ve indicated that.

Even an FEI definition doesn’t change that fact that it is pretty impossible to get international experience in the hunters.

BTW - You didn’t need to quote it. I have never once deleted a post because I thought it was embarrassing or thought I should retract my words. I edit for spelling (sometimes catching everything, sometimes only catching some mistakes), for clarity and lastly because I was being overly harsh and felt bad about it. Other than that, I will leave what I wrote for all to see…and to ridicule if they feel the need.

#35

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7220200]
all the customers on the hunter forums SWEAR UP AND DOWN that their trainers will go broke if they don’t charge these astronomical fees.[/QUOTE]

Where are people swearing this up and down? I pretty much read about how trainers make a lot of their money at the shows (true) and customers lamenting the costs…not defending them. Just because someone pays the price because they choose to train with someone doesn’t mean they believe the charges are what they are because it is the level that their trainers will break even.

It happens everywhere in H/J. Stalls at shows. Equipment. Clothing: my helmet, for example, should not cost $350+ but since people will pay it…and more…I make the choice of whether I want that helmet or not. I am NOT making the illogical leap that the manufacturer must be just barely breaking even because they keep raising the price of their product. Don’t even get me started on Animo products. People have the money, so be it…but they are artificially driving up costs for everyone else (if Animo can get $400 for ugly ass pink breeches, then Pikeur should be able to get at least $250 for theirs, and so on…)

#36

Where are people making that leap?

See the post halfway up this thread where someone is saying the h/j clinics are expensive because you have to take into consideration flights, rental car, hotel, facility, foregone lessons from shutting the ring down, …

Sure, take it into consideration …and lo and behold it is nowhere near $12k a weekend. The clinic was in the black thousands of dollars ago so why is it still so expensive I wonder.

As for how can a hunter/jumper trainer gain international experience? Well, mine flew over years ago as a working student fresh out of the juniors. And lately he just got back from having his whole sales operation in Europe for a few years. Come ride, I’ll lend you a horse. The fee plus airfare is less than what you’d normally pay.

#37

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7220200]
However if somebody wants to justify astronomical prices by somehow asserting that “no one will make any money otherwise, such prices are necessary for the clinic to even run in the black,” then no. The math does not support your conclusion. The clinic was running in the black several thousand dollars ago. Airfare, facility rental, a hotel and insurance are not $10,000 if we could just rejoin reality for a minute here. The rest of the money is people’s choice to get on that hamster wheel and pay it.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure how you jumped from “people are free to make the money they can” to “such prices are necessary to run in the black.”

I’m under no disillusion that big money is required to run a clinic in the black. My point is that a clinician is free to charge what they can get. It took a good 6-figure salary to keep me traveling 3-weeks a month for my last job. I totally understand if a clinician wants to make that much money traveling on long traveling stints to earn his or her living.

Two separate issues.

The clinic running in the red or black is usually a factor impacting the organizer. The clinician making money is usually a factor set by and affecting only the clinician. No real relation to each other, other than the fact that a clinician can only charge an amount that is in some way related to his/her ability to teach or help people (or maybe in some cases simply making them feel like they were helped).

#38

Around here dressage clinics are more expensive than most of the h/j clinics I have seen, but also usually just 1 person private dressage lessons with clinician.
I believe that the dressage clinics my last h/j trainer attended was something like $250 for one session ( I would think it was 45-60 mins). The last h/j clinic I took was $350 for 3 sessions (with 6 people per session hour and a half to 2 hour sessions)

#39

I was responding to findeights post detailing costs as an explanation for the prices “to break even”, not yours.

#40

I know several BNT that charge 3-4k per day plus expenses, so no way to do 3 per group

Get your Digital Subscription here - only $21.95 / year

Subscribe here
See gift options

Sign up to our monthly newsletter!

By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.

Copyright © 2023 The Chronicle of the Horse