Nutrition

Generally yes, the problem is marketing and what a company calls their product LOL I consider a general v/m supplement to be fairly useless, as almost none of the nutrients are there in any meaningful amounts

A few forage balancers are more “complete” than most. The MadBarn products, something like High Point Grass and Arizona Copper Complete (maybe Lonestar Trace? not as familiar with that one) from Horsetech, are 4 that come to mind. Some may call them a v/m supplement, others call them a forage balancer

Most - California Trace, Vermont Blend, KIS Trace, and more, are very bare-bones for what’s almost universally low - copper, zinc, some have amino acids and magnesium some don’t, some have added manganese for the areas that are usually low (AZ Copper Complete for example), that sort of thing. Oh, they usually have iodine as well.

I wouldn’t start reducing fat for a PSSM1 horse.

Most PSSM/MIM horses don’t start showing issues until 5-6-7, after the high energy needs of growth are behind them

That’s a bit more than 1/2lb (1.08lb/qt) so insignificant calories. If he gained weight, it was likely due to more or better quality hay at your place

As long as you’re feeding ample Vit E (often needed in higher amounts for these guys), his Se level is good (bloodwork), then the diet sounds totally appropriate, especially with the addition of the AlCar for the MIM/PSSM2 issues. At this point it sounds like the bases are covered (see the above about fat)

The only exception is that with PSSM2/MIM he may start needing more, and higher quality protein . This could be more alfalfa, adding BCAAs, adding whey isolate protein (isolate’s important, that’s the removal of almost all lactose), to support his muscles.

awww thanks! I’m happy to share who I am in a PM, several people here know who I am already, there are just some here I prefer to not out myself around, so if you’re on FB, I’m happy to be friends! I’m just a girl with a passion for this stuff for the last 25 years :slight_smile:

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So ellenor kellen says if you feed alcar to not feed high fat. Specially for quarter horses. So why I have backed down fat bc I added in alcar

As long as you’re feeding ample Vit E (often needed in higher amounts for these guys), his Se level is good (bloodwork), then the diet sounds totally appropriate, especially with the addition of the AlCar for the MIM/PSSM2 issues. At this point it sounds like the bases are covered (see the above about fat)

The only exception is that with PSSM2/MIM he may start needing more, and higher quality protein . This could be more alfalfa, adding BCAAs, adding whey isolate protein (isolate’s important, that’s the removal of almost all lactose), to support his muscles.

I had his blood drawn last November and will soon do it again when I get his teeth done. But everything was normal range. But at that time he was on 1 scoop of elevate se which is 1 mg of selenium and 1500 natural e on top of vb which is 2 mg of selenium and he was giving 2000 iu natural vit e capsules a day to. I don’t feed him elevate se anymore haven’t since July so guess curious to see how his selenium levels would test now.

can you link to where she said that so I can see more info and context?

https://groups.io/g/EPSM-PSSM/message/313

This is also where she mentions if don’t test hay should feed tc30

I’m not in the group so can’t see that. I think it’s VERY reasonable to feed a ration balancer over a forage balancer if you’re not testing. But if you’re feeding 10-20% alfalfa then I don’t see anything about a ration balancer that’s needed, since the alfalfa would pretty much cover any protein deficiency, or Ca:p imbalance

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I love that. Yes, I do want to be friends and follow you on FB. I’ll message. Thank you!

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I’m low on sleep and it’s early but are you saying that California Trace is not worth feeding?

Do you test hay? Tho I wouldn’t feed cal trace regardless. I’d you feed California trace products, I’d feed cal trace plus. Idk if many ppl feed regular cal trace anymore.

Not saying that at all :slight_smile: It’s 100% appropriate in a lot of situations, as it contains several very useful things. I wouldn’t feed it to a < 2yo without a grass hay test, or without feeding some alfalfa to add more protein and Ca.

but why?

Not everyone needs the higher AAs or cu/zn

Lots of people do

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I board so no I don’t test hay, and yes I feed CT+

Ty!

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I believe the regular has much less copper zinc vit e and amino acids than the plus. ISo I’m not sure if you were going to spend money on it, why you would feed if over the plus specially if you don’t test hay or don’t offer much pasture. What I see on the forage group a lot that if ppl say they are feeding the regular they are recommended to feed the plus always.

Regular still has 175mg cu and 500mg zn, which is plenty for lots of forages. that doesn’t mean more is bad, but it’s easily just…more

pasture vs hay is irrelevant.

“the forage group” is pretty rigid about a lot of beliefs.

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It’s not when you’re talking vit e and If you don’t supply pasture. 750 iu of synthetic vit e most likely will not be enough that’s in the regular cal trace. But sure cal trace regular is still good to feed.

we weren’t talking about Vit E. Besides, the E that’s in both CT products can’t be trusted, lots of horses are coming up deficient when on this, because the copper is degrading it since there’s no oil/fat to protect it. That’s why Vermont Blend and some others don’t bother putting E in, it’s wasteful

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I wish more people knew this! I’ve been supplementing with Vitamin E for years with my older mare, and I had no idea! A higher dose was recommended by her vet after her probable EPM. I use gel capsules from Amazon. 6000 IU/day if natural Vitamin E. A bit less in the summer when she gets 1-2 hours on pasture per day.

Younger mare is getting 1 scoop of Elevate per day as she wouldn’t eat the gel caps. I think that’s 1000 IU.