OK, Let's Talk Dystocias...

[Edgewood]

@Fairview Horse Center;5551414

We attempted this back in 2000, with a foal that was dead, presenting normal legs first, but head turned back. <I truly HATE trying to deliver a dead foal!!> We absolutely could not get the foal pushed back enough to get the room to reposition the head/neck.

The vet told him the foal could NOT be delivered poll first, but what did we have to lose?

She was totally fine. We bred her back about a month later, and her foaling was totally normal.

I had this happen 2 years ago too. The foal died at 314 days and in the morning, the mare, who had no real udder yet, started delivery. What I found was an upside down and poll first position. I basically found the poll and ears when I reached in, no legs and the foal was upside down (hadn’t turned). My husband and I could not get it straightened, and I had called the vet immediately. We walked the mare till the vet arrived.

Then we positioned her on a slight hill and the (male) vet, who is also very experienced with delivering cattle dystocias felt that he could deliver the dead foal without a fetotomy. He actually pulled the foal’s nose from the flexed position–remember poll first positioning at first) inside the mare–shocked that he had room, but he put in both arms into the mare and worked it to pull the nose forward and stretched out inside the mare. Then, as both legs were back (and the foal was upside down), he put on obstetrical chains around each knee and pulled the leg forward (inside the mare). We delivered the dead colt upside down. He was quite big as he was weighed at necropsy (115 lbs @ d314)

FWIW, the mare did retain her placenta, but came out fine. I gave her 1 year off (it took a few cycles for her cervix to close up normally). But the next year she caught with twins with 1 dose of frozen and just delivered a filly foal normally last week.

[Equine_Reproduction]

[QUOTE=Edgewood;5553369]

FWIW, the mare did retain her placenta, but came out fine. [/QUOTE]

This is worthy of note as many (most…at least in my experience) result in a retained placenta. And, because you’ve done some pretty horrific things usually to get the foal out, you want to be careful how much oxytocin you use as you don’t want to end up with a uterus in your lap as well. So, just something else to be aware of with a dystocia.

[Kyzteke]

@Equine Reproduction;5553383

This is worthy of note as many (most…at least in my experience) result in a retained placenta. And, because you’ve done some pretty horrific things usually to get the foal out, you want to be careful how much oxytocin you use as you don’t want to end up with a uterus in your lap as well. So, just something else to be aware of with a dystocia.

I know a prolapsed uterus in cattle is fairly common and (apparently) not a real big deal.

What about mares? Do they prolapse frequently?

[Oakstable]

My mare who I described as my first of two dystocias in 2007 retained her placenta and was in the hospital for 10-14 days. Don’t recall exactly. The surgeon would not pull out the placenta piece by piece.

That’s why my bill exploded.

The mare got back in foal on her next cycle. The vet said she was squeaky clean after so much flushing.

She lost the pregnancy though she looked like she had gone full term. Finally checked her and she was open. I have not bred her back because of the recession.

[Equine_Reproduction]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5553388]
I know a prolapsed uterus in cattle is fairly common and (apparently) not a real big deal.

What about mares? Do they prolapse frequently?[/QUOTE]

Mares don’t prolapse frequently and yes, it’s a big deal when they do. With cattle, you pretty much just hose it off and stuff it back in. Mares…not so much :(. C-sections are also fairly common in the cattle industry. Mares…not so much :(. Twins are pretty common in cattle, too. Mares…not so much :(. Good reproductive efficiency is also common in the cattle industry. Mares…not so much :(. Take home message? You just can’t compare the equine to just about any other species when talking reproduction

[TaliaCristianna]

[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;5553182]
Mmm…depends on the reason for the dystocia. With the mare that we dealt with that had uterine inertia? The previous year she also had uterine inertia. With three men pulling, we managed to get that foal out, and it was fine. No issues with the foal. Maiden mare. Figured it was a fluke thing. Following year, we had the malpresentation with the uterine inertia again. She was not bred again.

There’s always a caveat to everything, isn’t there <sigh>.

FWIW, the foaling we had on Saturday (yeah…yet ANOTHER boy <rolling eyes> ) was a mild dystocia. Head was down underneath the front legs, so had to work a little bit on that one. Finally got his lil’ head popped up where it belongs and everything went fine from there…well…other than needing three enemas to get things rolling (no pun intended )[/QUOTE]

With my mare, the contractions were so prevalent it just aggravated the problem. The foal’s head was tucked down onto its chest and every time I tried to push it back to get my hand around and reposition the contractions would start immediately and bring the forehead right back up against the pubic bone again. She is not a very big mare so there wasn’t a lot of working room as it is.

Once the vet arrived it took another 45+ minutes to get the foal out. We had to knock the mare out completely and lay her down because every time we got the foal even a tiny bit adjusted the contractions would start again - even after the first shot of sedative was given!

[Formosus]

Ok so …
You suspect a dystocia. You call the vet right away but he is at least 30-40 minutes away.
What can you do do buy time?
a) get the mare up -check
b) keep her up and moving by all means possible-check
c) if you have banamine on hand do you give it ?- it slows contractions no?

d) try to reposition yourself if you can do it safely (safety for yourself here).
Anything else?

[Kyzteke]

@Formosus;5553579

Ok so …
You suspect a dystocia. You call the vet right away but he is at least 30-40 minutes away.
What can you do do buy time?
a) get the mare up -check
b) keep her up and moving by all means possible-check
c) if you have banamine on hand do you give it ?- it slows contractions no?

d) try to reposition yourself if you can do it safely (safety for yourself here).
Anything else?

I suppose the banamine might work, but I know my vet has never recommended it to slow contractions. I’d be interested to hear what others say.

I am in that EXACT position. Best case scenerio my vet is 30-40 minutes away.

I would call my neighbors immediately (I have afew that say they will come if it’s an emergency) and start to try to correct the dystocia myself. The quicker you are, the better chance of a positive outcome.

I would NOT wait for the vet. I might try to get her to “talk me through it” on the cell while me or one of my strong guy neighbors tried stuff, but I would NOT just wait.
(Note to self: make sure cell phone is fully charged).

Also realized another thing I am lacking in my barn – a BIG, industrial size jug of sterile OB lube. All I have are the little tubes for AI and stuff.

Lots & lots of lube is vital.

[Sugarbrook]

So, in a perfect world, if this was, lets say, Zenyatta, do you think anyone can check her ahead of time (ultrasound?) to see if the foal is in position?
I was always thinking the foal made its move just before foaling and got in the proper position.

Would the vet facility be on top of it enough to say “your mare has the foal in the perfect position and the foaling will go just fine”

Just askin…I have always just been there and prayed.!!

[chestnutwithchrome]

This thread is very interesting and enlightening on the things you can do at home.

I work at one of the big equine clinics in TB country. I work in the Surgery dept. and take all the after hours emergency calls. I then hold the mares during dystocias and help pull if she is anesthetized. I would say we get around 30-40 or so every season, although the recession has reduced that. Maybe 10% are able to be corrected while the mare is sedated and standing, 85% are done with the mare dropped with ketamine and maintained with anesthesia while her hind end is hoisted up about 3ft in order for the surgeons to more easily reposition the foals, and 5% are C-Sections. If they come to us, they are usually bad, so my view is different on dystocias That is why my horses foal at the clinic! I’ve seen to many things and am way too paranoid.

We see mostly thoroughbreds, with some standardbreds, and then the rare off breed. It seems like there is often a reason the foal didn’t want to come out, with it either being dead, severely contracted, having scoliosis, or some other abnormality. It is always exciting when we get a live one! The strangest one I saw was a foal born that was windswept at the hips, and crooked all the way down, as if his hind legs had been crossed the whole time he was baking. The same foal had no ventral body wall and you could palpate his intestines through his skin.

I can’t imagine having to correct a difficult dystocia with just one person! We have one person holding the mare, the surgeon maniupulating the foal and placing the chains and snares, and 3-4 people pulling on the chains. It takes a lot of sheer strength to get those babies out sometimes! Anyone doing it at home, more power to you!

[wehrlegirl]

[QUOTE=Sugarbrook;5554279]
So, in a perfect world, if this was, lets say, Zenyatta, do you think anyone can check her ahead of time (ultrasound?) to see if the foal is in position?
I was always thinking the foal made its move just before foaling and got in the proper position.

Would the vet facility be on top of it enough to say “your mare has the foal in the perfect position and the foaling will go just fine”

Just askin…I have always just been there and prayed.!![/QUOTE]

I asked about this regarding my mare who lost her last foal to dystocia and the vet said they would be able to do so… Im so shaken up by the experience Ill take her in to ensure all is well. Im assuming it also implies she foals at the vet clinic since by the time the foal is in position things are happening fast.

[Equine_Reproduction]

@chestnutwithchrome;5554309

This thread is very interesting and enlightening on the things you can do at home.

Yup. You’ve GOT to think out of the box. I remember when we first used the tractor, the vet was eying the rafters in the barn and discussing using a come-along. I suggested that the tractor would have hydraulics and could possibly be more easily maneuvered. The downside was it was the middle of the night and we would have to work outside the barn. We worked under the headlights of several vehicles. I envy you the pristine surgical environment.

Sterile lube <sigh>? By the time you get to the point that you recognize you’re in REAL trouble, sterile lube will be the least of your problems. We were using GALLONS of lube. I just made sure we busted open new jugs and figured we needed to deal with the dystocia first and we’d worry about infection later. Surprisingly, we’ve never had a massive infection after a dystocia.

My hope is that anyone that gets into a similar bind remembers some of the information here and hopefully has at least a somewhat good outcome.

[jennywho]

reading this - why the heck don’t I have lube on hand? Thanks all.

One thing that I saw mentioned briefly, but might be worth repeating is the use of a hill. Sometimes standing a mare facing downhill is enough to get the foal slipped back far enough to reposition. Similar idea to using a tractor or engine hoist but less dramatic.

My “favorite” dystocia story occured when I was by myself and ran into problems and the vet refused to come out because I was too far. I knew that a new family had moved into a vacant house down the road and although I hadn’t met them yet I was banging on their door at 3am begging for help. Thankfully he was game, despite not ever being near a horse before and we got the filly out. Welcome to the “neighborhood”

Although this thread is hard to read, I think those of us that have lost a mare or foal to dystocia can find comfort in knowing we’re not alone. Also good to know that just because you finally resort to a fetotomy you may still have problems getting the foal out.

Blah, back to watching my girl on marestare.

Thanks for starting this thread. Kyetzke I see you are 2 hours from WSU, you aren’t in ellensburg are you?

[Tasker]

I’ve been hesitating to add to this thread (bad ju-ju or whatever) but am having a gut instinct to ward off bad things by sharing the horror stories I’ve collected in the past 10 years. As an FYI - I sleep on a cot or in a small pup tent in the barn every night until foaling season is over. Cameras and all that don’t work for me as I can sleep through just about anything. :LOL: But the ‘splash’ or some rhythmic breathing/groaning - I levitate and am stallside before my eyelids are open…so it has worked. Sort of.

Dystocia #1 -
4 year old maiden mare in the barn nights for the month leading up to day 340. Night of 321, there was a ‘different’ noise from one of the back stalls (3 other mares were due before this particular mare) and I got up, walked the 30’ back to her stall, flipped on the flashlight, saw a single hoof, no nose and no placenta. Got the mare up (not a lot of a struggle as she was very concerned with what was happening), got her out in the small paddock just in front of the barn and would walk her up the slight grade and trot/jog downhill. While we were doing this, I called our repro vet who lived less than 3 miles away. She arrived in less than 10 minutes, checked the mare, repositioned the foal and we got her back in the barn, in the main foaling stall and had the filly out in less than 3 minutes. The filly had some broken ribs (the foreleg that hadn’t presented was folded back underneath and across her belly). The filly did require some oxygen supplementation and CPR at delivery - but the vet is 6’ and swung her around & did compressions. She’s a healthy, happy and wonderful horse to ride as a coming 5 year old. The mare has had several more foals for us (rebred on her 30 day heat) and textbook pregnancies/deliveries so far. (fingers crossed) She did retain some placenta and was on antibiotics and flushed for several days with Oxytocin to encourage the removal of the remaining bits.

The keys to saving that foal & mare - the early catch of disaster, the gentle jogging downhill to let the foal slip back end, the vet being so close by, the oxygen and experienced help.

Dystocia #2 - neighbors mare in 2007? or 2006?
7-9 year old TB who had had several foals in the past
Neighbor called with a mare not progressing in delivery after 4 hours. I get there and it is a red bag. Repeated ‘call the vet’ gets a fair amount of complaining that there will be a farm call, emergency fee, etc. About an hour or 2 later - her vet is called, he arrives and had very little repro experience but determines that yes it is a dystocia and red bag and it is time to get the tractor. The sedate the mare, hoist her rear end with chains about 5’ off the ground (basically her crest and head are all that has contact with the earth) and he starts throwing handfuls of dry lube powder at her vagina. :rolleyes: The vet students that are with him (all men over 6’) just watch and about 20 minutes later, I am handed a handle of one of the chains. A horrific hour later - a dead colt is finally delivered. I have no idea who, what, how or the final determination of what actually caused this dystocia - I left with a don’t call me to do this again, please. It was awful.

The big problem that I saw - if the vet had been called earlier perhaps the foal would have been saved…but it was a disaster through and through from the moment I got there. Just terrible.

Dystocia #3 -
16 year old mare at Day 357 with foal #3 had shown intermittent dripping milk, slightly crampy every few hours for a few minutes at a time for about 2 weeks but did not ever make any progress towards actually foaling. I went to my house (about 100’ from the mare barn) and got another bottle of water, so about a 5 minute to and fro absence from stall side. When I got back, there was a muzzle and no feet. Called the vet (from Dystocia #1 of course :winkgrin: ) and she was here in minutes as we both had been so concerned about this mare. She checked the mare, sedated her and we started trekking back and forth up and down the length of the driveway in the pouring rain. It was about 40* and just bucketing down. My mom was having to use a dressage whip to keep the mare going/upright and she just would not stop pushing with her contractions. About an hour later - we dropped the mare on the lawn and with the help of 4 of our neighbors, the vet, her husband (who’s a serious weightlifter) and a small tractor - we delivered a dead leggy black colt with severely contracted tendons. There was no saving him from the beginning and the first question the vet asked when she arrived was “Mare or foal?” so we made the mare the priority and sacrificed the foal at that instant.

The mare has never been rebred and was retired to ‘Saint Lily’ status that night as she did the best she could to cooperate and never threatened to hurt us. She did retain a bit of placenta and we flushed for several days, antibiotics, etc. Her uterus had basketball sized contusions and while we were told we could ‘try’ to ET’s, with 2 daughters already on the ground - we felt it was unnecessary. She was a good riding horse and eventually regained control of her urethra - for about a year she would dribble urine if she trotted or cantered.

Dystocia #4 -
Full term mare with foal #3, a 7AM delivery with the foal presenting horizontally (feet on top of one another but sideways). Vet arrived within 10 minutes, we turned and delivered the colt within minutes but he had twisted the umbilicus into so many twists his oxygen supply had been cut off. The black colt was still born. Mare was fine, rebred on her 30 day heat and had a healthy filly with an easy delivery the next year.

I’m not a vet but I feel/felt that he was flipping around positioning for delivery (maybe later that night) and was ‘expelled’ a bit early as a survival instinct? I had thought she would hold out for a few more nights as she hadn’t waxed as much in the past and wasn’t as relaxed as with her previous foals.

So hopefully those tales of woe help a bit. :( :sigh: Breeding and more specifically foaling is not for the faint of heart. After #3 I have vowed to do ET's with our 'best' mares as the risk of the mare was driven home that night...but with the passing of time that is fading slightly. :sigh: Amnesia or something along those lines...

[Kyzteke]

@jennywho;5554450

Thanks for starting this thread. Kyetzke I see you are 2 hours from WSU, you aren’t in ellensburg are you?

No, I’m in Idaho – between Coeur d’Alene & Sandpoint. I WISH I could afford to foal all my mares out at WSU…wouldn’t that be sweet?

But when it all goes right, I truly enjoy the whole experience (I also sleep in the barn next to the foaling stall once the milk tests tell me to). I am always alone, it’s quiet. Just me and the mare.

Then all of a sudden, a new being comes into the world! It’s like opening your presents on Christmas – after all that wait you FINALLY get to see what you got! Chestnut, bay, black – loads of chrome or solid – filly or colt. SO exciting.

And I adore the part about being the first one to welcome this little creature to Life.

My last foal born was last summer. He was the only full Akhal-Teke son sired by my stallion Kinor and his very last foal. Two months after this foal was conceived, I lost Kinor to a broken femur.

The night this colt was born, a shooting star passed over the barn just before he made his appearance. Honest! As soon as he was out of the womb and shook the woolies from his eyes, he sat up on his chest and looked right at me, very clearly…as if to say, “Well, here I am! Wasn’t I worth the wait?”

Hard to express, but it was one of the most mystical, profound experiences I’ve ever had…

Lots of things in Life are full of risk and heartbreak, but those are the things that give you the deepest, most satisfying fulfillment when they work…

The only part that bothers me (and always has) is the “risk” is NOT being undertaken by me, but by another creature(s). That part is still hard for me to take…which is why, if I ever lose a mare, I think that will be it for me. I honestly don’t know how I could go on after that. At this point all my mares are gals I’ve bred myself, so I was there the day they were born as well, and welcomed them into the world…I think the guilt would just kill me if something happened to them…

TONS of admiration for those who go on after that…don’t know how you do it…

[Kyzteke]

@Tasker;5554616

I’ve been hesitating to add to this thread (bad ju-ju or whatever) but am having a gut instinct to ward off bad things by sharing the horror stories I’ve collected in the past 10 years.

WOW! Tasker those are some stories!!

And aren’t you the lucky one to have a good repro vet just minutes from your house. Wish it was me.

So NEW note to self:

Things to have on hand for foaling:

• Charged cell phone – know how to work the “speak phone” function
• LOTS of flash lights with good batteries.
• TONS of lube of any kind (will Pam work?:D)
• Be on good terms with all the strong, male neighbors

And questions to ER: #1) Will Banamine slow the contractions at all? I know it works on smooth muscle, but my vet says it won’t work. With my one dystocia the vet (a different one) did an epidural.

Are they any drugs the average, non-vet mare owner would be likely to have on hand that would make working with the contractions easier?

#2) Is having oxygen on hand useful? As a human nurse, I would think yes, but my current vet says it “usually” doesn’t help. I find that hard to believe, but don’t want to tick off my vet TOO badly. True or false?

[Tasker]

Ahhh, I was lucky the vet lived so close. She has moved 45 minutes away and we are still debating sending her our mare(s) for this year to foal out. The risk/reward/cost debate is still in full swing. :sigh:

ETA: regarding Oxygen - I have tried for the last 5 years to get a small tank here on the farm and run into all sorts of problems with the local companies dealing with a ‘personal use’ scenario. I do have an animal (calf) bag/rebreather (sp?). That’s as close to an actual tank as I can get unfortunately.

[raffey1]

Humans with emphysema have their own little oxygen tanks that they wheel around. So the home health companies, rather than the big oxygen companies, are who I would talk to about a tank for this reason.

[Kyzteke]

@Tasker;5555055

ETA: regarding Oxygen - I have tried for the last 5 years to get a small tank here on the farm and run into all sorts of problems with the local companies dealing with a ‘personal use’ scenario. I do have an animal (calf) bag/rebreather (sp?). That’s as close to an actual tank as I can get unfortunately.

Well, as a nurse I was just going to (temporarily) “liberate” one from where I work. As long as I returned it full, it would be no harm/no foul.

But I’m not working now, so…

However, one year I rented one from my vet, so you might try that avenue.

And another thought would be to just buy a tank and valves from a place like eBay. Then (I think) any welding place could fill it for you…

[maybedog]

Thanking my lucky stars for this thread! Started reading it yesterday a.m. knowing we were dealing with a big foal and a mare with a history with problems. Have foaled numerous mares with moderate dystocias. Last night found it necessary to bring out the straps. Foal was huge and not budging. My sister looked at me like I had 3 heads when I said “wrap the straps around your butt and lean back!” Did the trick. Huge but healthy colt! We realized that even both of us together would not have had the strength to pull with our hands. Owner wanted to know where I heard that. I told her Chronicle Forums of course!

Question about oxygen. I am a nurse and was able to “borrow” a tank & valve but now am unsure how to get it refilled. Vet was at a loss also. Can welders really fill them? We did have to use it this year for the first time.