OK, Let's Talk Dystocias...

Foal CPR

I’ve seen enough puppies brought to life after being born without breathing or a pulse that I think I would want to try CPR on a foal born without a pulse.
But, more importantly, I don’t know how to do foal CPR. Can anyone tell me?
BTW, my dog’s first puppy (a purebred pom) was “brought back to life” after being born apparently lifeless, after difficult labor leading to C-section. They used a variety of techniques on him including CPR and submerging him in very warm and very cold water. He suddenly started breathing and grew up to be a completely normal dog (no apparent brain damage). We should have named him Lucky LOL.

There are also portable O2 concentrators but you do not want that. Most are demand flow which means O2 is only delivered when a breath is taken. The tanks are continuous flow. We feel that if you are in a situation that you need O2 then you run it wide open. My tank has a carrying case so I can take it right into the stall. I have 6’ and 10’ tubing, have only used the 6’. With the filly we just had when she started breathing on her own and no longer required the resuscitator I set the end of the tubing just inside her nostril until she decided it was time to start moving around.

:lol::lol::lol: !! Had a visual of the cashier trying not to be all bug-eyed. :smiley: Wish we were close buddies to share lots of this silly type of humour. It’s great fun thinking up stupid stuff - such a riot. My family and I visit a single joke 50 times putting the funny on various parts of it to eke out another larf at a different aspect of the same thing. We’re so pathetic!:D:no:

…back to regular programming

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5555911]
Or it may save your future foal’s life.

That’s another way to look at it.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I know, that’s why I keep reading. But it’s a little horrifying to read about all the things that can go wrong. How are any foals born alive and healthy?!

[QUOTE=amastrike;5556870]
Oh, I know, that’s why I keep reading. But it’s a little horrifying to read about all the things that can go wrong. How are any foals born alive and healthy?![/QUOTE]

Because probably 98% of foals are born without any problems at all…we just hear about the other 2%.

It’s just incredible… the timing has to be right to get the mare bred, then you have 11 months of stuff that can go wrong, and then the foal has to get out alive. How does it work?! Of course, this only applies if you’re careful and responsible and a good owner.

Foal CPR ~ Per Karen Hayes DVM

That’s right! And the best way to insure an event-free foaling is to spend $1000 on stuff in your foaling kit…:wink:

Either that or be one of those people who animals breed freely in muddy pastures full of old farming implements and barbed wire…

Re: FOAL CPR: Hayes explains it in her book and it’s pretty straight forward:

1.Strip or suck all the goo from the baby’s nostrils. I use a turkey baster or just “strip”. Check the mouth for foreign material and clear if necessary.
2. Then place the foal on his right side (left side up).
3. Check for a pulse (heartbeat). If the heart is beating do NOT do chest compressions -- only “rescue breathing.”
4. CLose foal’s mouth and pinch the lower nostril with one hand, then place your lips over his upper nostril and blow an average lungful of air into his nostril until you see his chest rise. Then remove your mouth and allow the air to escape.
5. Repeat this process again and again, giving the foal approximately one breath every three seconds.
6. If heart resuscitation is also needed, a second person will be needed to apply quick, firm nudges to the heart with the heel of the hand on the foal’s chest just behind the elbow on the left side. The idea here is to massage the heart, NOT bruise or crack a rib. (Hayes doesn’t mention a depth of compression, however with infants and children, the depth of compression is slight – about 1/2" if I recall correctly…pediatrics not being my speciality).
7. Give one compression every second.

Hayes also says if you don’t have a response “within a couple of minutes” you should admit defeat because even if revived, the foal is likely to have sustained brain damage.

I should also note that both Haye’s book and my own experience has been that many foals appear to be hypoxic when they first come out – blue tongue, no sign of breathing, etc. THIS IS NORMAL.

It’s a internal protective devise to keep them from trying to breath while still in the birth canal/womb. Keep in mind that as long as the baby is still connected to the umbilical cord, she is getting 02 and blood from her dam.

But mine have always started twitching and breathing within a minute or so after the majority of their body exits the birth canal…even though their legs & hip may still be in mom.

Anyone watched Laurierace revive her filly? Laurie said she had a faint pulse and she administered some kind of CPR while someone else was massaging the filly’s chest. It was heartbreaking to see this big filly so limp at first and then, she moved and was up in no time. What a testimony to not giving up!!! Somewhere either here or on Marestare, Laurie explained what she did.

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5557231]
That’s right! And the best way to insure an event-free foaling is to spend $1000 on stuff in your foaling kit…:wink:

Either that or be one of those people who animals breed freely in muddy pastures full of old farming implements and barbed wire…

Re: FOAL CPR: Hayes explains it in her book and it’s pretty straight forward:

1.Strip or suck all the goo from the bay’s nostrils. I use a turkey baster or just “strip”. Check the mouth for foreign material and clear if necessary.
2. Then place the foal on his right side (left side up).
3. Check for a pulse (heartbeat). If the heart is beating do NOT do chest compressions – only “rescue breathing.”
4. CLose foal’s mouth and pinch the lower nostril with one hand, then place your lips over his upper nostril and blow an average lungful of air into his nostril until you see his chest rise. Then remove your mouth and allow the air to escape.
5. Repeat this process again and again, giving the foal approximately one breath every three seconds.
6. If heart resuscitation is also needed, a second person will be needed to apply quick, firm nudges to the heart with the heel of the hand on the foal’s chest just behind the elbow on the left side. The idea here is to massage the heart, NOT bruise or crack a rib. (Hayes doesn’t mention a depth of compression, however with infants and children, the depth of compression is slight – about 1/2" if I recall correctly…pediatrics not being my speciality).
7. Give one compression every second.

Hayes also says if you don’t have a response “within a couple of minutes” you should admit defeat because even if revived, the foal is likely to have sustained brain damage.

I should also note that both Haye’s book and my own experience has been that many foals appear to be hypoxic when they first come out – blue tongue, no sign of breathing, etc. THIS IS NORMAL.

It’s a internal protective devise to keep them from trying to breath while still in the birth canal/womb. Keep in mind that as long as the baby is still connected to the umbilical cord, she is getting 02 and blood from her dam.

But mine have always started twitching and breathing within a minute or so after the majority of their body exits the birth canal…even though their legs & hip may still be in mom.[/QUOTE]

Thank you-- this is fabulous! I can envision myself being completely panicked and not remembering which side to lay the foal. Now another question-- at what point would I use oxygen? If I need to do cpr… Im trying to visualize this. Like a step one , step two; foal comes out not breathing, no pulse… but after relatively quick readjustment of a dystocia, so- first cpr, then oxygen? Im assuming like my last dystocia after 1/2 hr ( this is what attending vet said) foal is DOA.

[QUOTE=FalseImpression;5557258]
Anyone watched Laurierace revive her filly? Laurie said she had a faint pulse and she administered some kind of CPR while someone else was massaging the filly’s chest. It was heartbreaking to see this big filly so limp at first and then, she moved and was up in no time. What a testimony to not giving up!!! Somewhere either here or on Marestare, Laurie explained what she did.[/QUOTE]

If you find a link and post it that would be wonderful! Thanks

THere really isn’t “some kind” of CPR. There is just CPR. It’s a standard method with a standard rate of compressions and breaths for adults, children, etc.

That’s why people take courses in it and get certified. There is ONE way to do it right, period.

And again, I have to point out that in people (and I assume in animals as well), if you have a pulse you should NOT do chest compressions or “massage” the heart.

If you do that, you have greatly increased your chance of screwing up the whole deal by pressing on or “massaging” a beating heart.

As an aside, the American Heart Assc. now recommends just plain rescue breathing in the case of most, non-professional instances of CPR for this very same reason – too many cases of cracked ribs, punctured lungs, etc. by over zealous folks while doing their chest compressions.

Again, the AHA doesn’t mention foal CPR, :lol: but a heart is a heart and they work the same way…

Oh, come on!!!:smiley: You’re cooler than that! A foal’s heart is on the same side as yours, so that’s easy to remember, isn’t it!

Personally, if there as not been a dystocia or red bag delivery, I wouldn’t even worry about it. If there HAD been something abnormal, I would apply the 02 as soon as the foal’s head became available.

No 02? As soon as foal’s umbilicus clears the birth canal, I’d check for a heartbeat with my stethscope (foal doesn’t have be on right side for this, you could reach under). If a heartbeat, start rescue breaths.

If NO heartbeat, I would protect the umbilicus for then the cord breaks, flip that baby over and start rescue breathing and chest compressions.

And I’m assuming you would have some help standing by to assist in all of this…

And yes, I think 30 mins is a VERY generous time frame to just throw in the towel if the foal has not revived. Actually more like 5-10 minutes. 'Cause after 10 minutes you can be sure there has been brain damage.

Plus it’s exhausting – try doing CPR for 10 minutes straight – YIKES!!

That’s why Ambu bags are cool – they are doing alot of the work for you…

Again, I would be eager to here the “order” of things from other people, but that’s just what I’m thinking I would do (after I came to from my faint, that is…:eek:)

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5557345]
Oh, come on!!!:smiley: You’re cooler than that! A foal’s heart is on the same side as yours, so that’s easy to remember, isn’t it!

Personally, if there as not been a dystocia or red bag delivery, I wouldn’t even worry about it. If there HAD been something abnormal, I would apply the 02 as soon as the foal’s head became available.

No 02? As soon as foal’s umbilicus clears the birth canal, I’d check for a heartbeat with my stethscope (foal doesn’t have be on right side for this, you could reach under). If a heartbeat, start rescue breaths.

If NO heartbeat, I would protect the umbilicus for then the cord breaks, flip that baby over and start rescue breathing and chest compressions.

And I’m assuming you would have some help standing by to assist in all of this…

And yes, I think 30 mins is a VERY generous time frame to just throw in the towel if the foal has not revived. Actually more like 5-10 minutes. 'Cause after 10 minutes you can be sure there has been brain damage.

Plus it’s exhausting – try doing CPR for 10 minutes straight – YIKES!!

That’s why Ambu bags are cool – they are doing alot of the work for you…

Again, I would be eager to here the “order” of things from other people, but that’s just what I’m thinking I would do (after I came to from my faint, that is…:eek:)[/QUOTE]

ehhh… yeah-its just the envisioning part that scary! Im scoping out hills on my property, buying straps and lube (that sounds so wrong), running down the list of meds to have on hand and just under two weeks for the first foal of the spring to be due. I think the pre-foaling panic is an annual event.

I know it is at my house! My vet is thinking of leaving town or turning off her cell phone in the month coming up to a foaling at my place!:winkgrin:

All you need to have one really bad experience and you get very paranoid.

You just have to remember the odds ARE in our favor…

Thank you Kyzteke! I loaned out my copy of Hayes’s book and haven’t got it back yet.

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5557316]
THere really isn’t “some kind” of CPR. There is just CPR. It’s a standard method with a standard rate of compressions and breaths for adults, children, etc.

That’s why people take courses in it and get certified. There is ONE way to do it right, period.

And again, I have to point out that in people (and I assume in animals as well), if you have a pulse you should NOT do chest compressions or “massage” the heart.

If you do that, you have greatly increased your chance of screwing up the whole deal by pressing on or “massaging” a beating heart.

As an aside, the American Heart Assc. now recommends just plain rescue breathing in the case of most, non-professional instances of CPR for this very same reason – too many cases of cracked ribs, punctured lungs, etc. by over zealous folks while doing their chest compressions.

Again, the AHA doesn’t mention foal CPR, :lol: but a heart is a heart and they work the same way…[/QUOTE]

You have that 100% backwards! The AHA recommends compressions ONLY for lay people. They want you to skip the breaths. The person is dead, who gives a crap if you break their ribs? If they live that will be the least of their worries. And yes, I am an EMT so I have taken plenty of CPR classes.
And my filly did not have a pulse which is why we did compressions at first. The heartbeat started long before the breathing which is why we switched from compressions to stimulation.

In reality this wasn’t true CPR, as she did have a weak pulse. I clamped her right nostril closed and put my mouth over her left nostril and gave a breath every 5 seconds. I checked to make sure I was getting a good chest rise which I was. I checked my efforts by assessing the color of her gums every so often. The BO was doing chest compressions right where the girth would go for part of the time to assist her circulation. Once she started attempting to breathe on her own I slowed down the frequency of my breaths for her until she was doing it adequately on her own. Once she was breathing and had a strong heart beat we went back to vigorous toweling as that stimulates them to breathe as well. Within a minute of breathing completely on her own she raised her head for the first time. Luckily I was able to keep her well enough profused that she had no oxygen deprivation symptoms.

I was still sleep deprived when I wrote that! She had no pulse in the beginning but got one very quickly after compressions were started. It was weak at first so he assisted it until it became more regular.
FYI you do the same with human newborns. If their heart is low you do CPR until the rate is adequate to sustain life.

sorry Laurie, I thought she had a weak pulse. I knew you thought you had a fighting chance and that’s what made you try so hard. I watched you with my heart in my throat and could not believe it when she moved her head.

There was also the situation a few days ago on MS where the mare delivered a big foal, healthy, alert, and then started pushing again. A big red glob and lots of blood appeared. The breeder stayed calmed, called her vet immediately and stayed with the mare. When she got up, the breeder stood holding the placenta and ? behind so it would not drop and become detached. Had no idea if it was in her words “a prolapsed uterus or a red bag twin”. Luckily, the vet arrived quickly (although it seemed to take forever) and determined it was a huge hematoma in the vagina. Mare and filly are doing well.

It was such a scary situation after the elation of the arrival of the dreamed of filly. Kudos again to the breeder for being so attentive and so calm!

CPR on people is very hard, physical work. The chest compressions are not 1/2" (!!!) they are 1/3 of the depth of the chest. This applies to adults, children and babies. It is recommended that the person doing the chest compressions changes round every 2-3 minutes because it is so exhausting. And keep your elbows locked straight. Not like they do on TV where their arms are bent and no power is being put into the compression at all. When Vets do CPR on adult horses they literally leap on the horse’s chest with their knees and use their full body weight to give the compressions. Don’t do that to a foal for obvious reasons. :lol:

The speed you should do the compressions in people is the same as the song “Nellie the Elephant” (about 100 a minute) and, very conveniently, the number of compressions in Nellie the Elephant coincides with the number you should give between breaths. Horses have a slower pulse rate than people so a slower rate of compressions is likely to be OK.

If you are on your own with a flat foal forget about the breaths and concentrate on the chest compressions, as Laurierace says. Don’t worry about breaking a rib. Better to be alive with a broken rib than dead with intact ones and baby ribs are surprisingly flexible so would be unlikely to fracture anyway. I would guess (and it is only a guess) that the same rule of compress 1/3 of the depth of the chest is a good guide as to how much effort you should put into the compressions. Hearts are basically sited in the middle of the chest so it doesn’t matter which side the foal is lying on. What matters is that the compressions are big enough to compress the heart and pump blood round the foal’s body.