How do you tell the difference between a mild and severe dystocia?
I once had a mare present with an upside down foal. Feet were pointed UP when they emerged from the mare. Very experienced broodmare got up, paced the stall, laid down again – on opposite side – and the foal’s feet SPUN into the right position. Mare delivered healthy foal a few minutes later.
I am very thankful for the advice and shared experience on this thread, but if I were to follow the advice given here I’d have tried to keep the mare up while waiting for the vet’s arrival, which may have led to a different outcome. (Or would it?) Do any of you give the mare a few minutes to try to work things out or is this not recommended?
YOu are correct – I did have that backwards. However after re-reading AHA recommendations they have switched because too many people (including health workers it seems) can’t FIND a pulse or take too long to find it.
And, as an EMT you know that CPR in the field without a defibrillator has a very low rate of success anyway… a fact that is not generally shared with the public.
So I guess they figure why not bang around, since the person is likely to be dead anyway…:no:
[QUOTE=hansiska;5559059]
How do you tell the difference between a mild and severe dystocia?
I once had a mare present with an upside down foal. Feet were pointed UP when they emerged from the mare. Very experienced broodmare got up, paced the stall, laid down again – on opposite side – and the foal’s feet SPUN into the right position. Mare delivered healthy foal a few minutes later.
I am very thankful for the advice and shared experience on this thread, but if I were to follow the advice given here I’d have tried to keep the mare up while waiting for the vet’s arrival, which may have led to a different outcome. (Or would it?) Do any of you give the mare a few minutes to try to work things out or is this not recommended?[/QUOTE]
If the feet present upside down this is one time when I will give the mare time to get up and down and roll several times, before interfering. This isn’t completely abnormal. Contrary to popular belief foals aren’t in the final birthing position for days/weeks, just waiting to dive out. They are generally on their backs and the final rotation occurs late in labor. So I would, in this case, give the mare a few extra minutes. This year we did have a foal present upside down that the mare could not turn on her own, so we did go ahead and get her up and turn it ourselves. However, in the past I would guess that about 70% of upside down foals (in my experience) have rotated on their own. You just have to decide how much extra time you are comfortable giving That’s a tough call, but I generally limit it to about 5 minutes of the mare trying to reposition the foal by herself. And again, this is the only presentation in which I would do that.
Hansiska – this thread is not meant to be all-encompassing and is more about people sharing info and what worked for them. Sort of an adjunct to the basic info about foaling.
If you read any good book on foaling, you will learn that what you saw is completely NORMAL and not a dystocia at all.
In general, the foal spends the last days(weeks?) of gestation on it’s back, head toward the vagina. THen it “gradually” spins so that it’s head & front feet are pointed towards the birth canal (and it’s hips & such may still be upside down).
So your foal was just abit tardy in “assuming the position,” and the mare corrected this. Totally normal – no cause of alarm.
If you really want to educate yourself on the foaling process, get one of the two books I’ve heard recommended over and over again:" Blessed Are the Broodmares" (sorry, don’t know the author) and “The Complete Book of Foaling” by Karen Hayes DVM.
This thread is just “extra stuff” and, as you can see, people have different experiences, difference results and difference solutions.
Hillside – we were typing at the same time! I know from Haye’s book that this presentation is not a particularly scary (or abnormal) one, but good to know from your experience exactly how long you would give the mare to correct the situation before stepping in…
I may have mentioned this before, but another MUST HAVE in the foaling stall – a CLOCK!! In high stress situations timing is critical, yet most of us lost track of time during a crisis. I have big old battery driven clock with big numbers that I can read from a distance that I bring into the stall as soon as the water breaks. And I will note (as in write down) the time of events.
Of course in a dystocia, things are different, but I still try to keep track of various times, because it IS critical.
What I also learned when learning how to use an AED is that they work only if there is an arrhythmic heart beat. If the heart is not beating at all, then the AED will not “work” at all.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5559145]
Hillside – we were typing at the same time! I know from Haye’s book that this presentation is not a particularly scary (or abnormal) one, but good to know from your experience exactly how long you would give the mare to correct the situation before stepping in…
I may have mentioned this before, but another MUST HAVE in the foaling stall – a CLOCK!! In high stress situations timing is critical, yet most of us lost track of time during a crisis. I have big old battery driven clock with big numbers that I can read from a distance that I bring into the stall as soon as the water breaks. And I will note (as in write down) the time of events.
Of course in a dystocia, things are different, but I still try to keep track of various times, because it IS critical.[/QUOTE]
Yes, we were! The Haye’s book has good drawings of how the foal starts out on its back and then is rotated into what we recognize as the classical delivery position. The uterus is amazing, it really has two types of contractions during labor/delivery; what they call expulsive contractions, and then what are termed rotational contractions. It is beautiful when it all works out!
Ditto the clock!!! Time does funny things in these situations. When there is a problem I always feel like things are going too slowly/taking too long to correct. But then I will look at the clock and realize that things are moving faster than I realized. I could not do without our giant barn clock…
[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;5559434]
What I also learned when learning how to use an AED is that they work only if there is an arrhythmic heart beat. If the heart is not beating at all, then the AED will not “work” at all.[/QUOTE]
You are absolutely right. There is no place for a defibrillator or AED when a heart is not beating. A non beating heart in a newborn is a very different scenario than a heart which has stopped beating in an adult and in the newborn it is never a condition that needs a defibrillator. Defibrillators only work on fibrillating hearts. That’s why they are called defibrillators.
Fortunately resuscitating a newborn is far more likely to be successful than an adult who has had a cardiac arrest. Newborns are far better prepared to cope with hypoxia too.
[QUOTE=Hillside H Ranch;5559120]
If the feet present upside down this is one time when I will give the mare time to get up and down and roll several times, before interfering. .[/QUOTE]
Ditto. I find this fairly often. they turn as they progresss into the birth canal. I definitely do not want to attempt to turn, as there is often no way of knowing early if the foal’s back end is laying on its right or left side at that point. I surely do not want to be attempting a 3/4 turn, opposite to the way they are laying when 1/4 will be the way to go. I encourage the mare to get up and down, and roll a bit by leaving her alone. Probably 25% of mine have presented feet up, and all have been turned shortly by the mare.
That said, I will quickly check before leaving her alone to reposition, as feet up will appear on breach births, so I want to feel a nose, not hocks and a tail.
My one and only foaling was a dystocia (is that the correct grammer? a noun?) that ended up a c-section, lost both mare and then the foal a week later.
I don’t even remember how it started, I was chasing a loose horse and caught the freaking mare by myself out on a 1/2mi track and came in to find BO and stablehand staring into a stall. Mare was down, BO said something about a broken shoulder/hip/something, mare was not getting back up. The mare went into labor and was already tired. BO dove in once feet started to poke out. I have this image burned in my brain of her just covered in every fluid a horse has, kneeling behind this mare, pulling on the feet. The head was stuck somewhere, called the two of us into the stall. We each got a foot to “hold onto” while she went in to try to position the head. Vet was called at some point, 45min away. BO kept yelling at us to pull, pull harder, but that foal was rightfully stuck! Vet came, tried to maneuver the head, failed. BO knew mare was already lost, decided to go for the foal by c-section. I got to kneel on the mare’s neck for the procedure until the foal popped out, where BO’s son lifted foal by it’s hind legs, BO breathing into nostrils and the rest of us rubbing like no tomorrow with rags. I know we did this twice before the foal, a colt, really came out of it.
I was somehow elected “foal nurse” and sat by him while they euthanized the mare and sewed her back together. I remember how incredible soft his fur was and he kept trying to stand and would push against me for leverage, in effect knocking me over! At the time, I was the groom for his full sister in the race wing, so I felt like I already had a connection to the little guy. He went septic a week later and either died on his own or was euthanized, no one bothered to tell me.
Found these/ but they dont look much different than straps from Home Depot. I keep trying to envision doing this without the mare flipping out and kicking the daylights out of me… I need videos!!!
Well, that way not my intent, but I assumed you were were not very experienced in foaling, because other wise you would be aware of what Hillside, myself & Fairview said – that the foal often doesn’t get into the “diving” position till foaling time. That the mare’s uterus has 2 different sorts of contractions and one of them is rotational, which is what turns the foal. That it’s not that unusual for a foal to present feet up (upside down).
Maybe I was wrong, but I made this assumption based on your statement that you would treat a feet up presentation as a dystocia, get the mare up and walking, etc.
So maybe you are just feeling cranky.
COngrats on the twins!! How are they doing? Are you still having to bottle feed them? Aren’t they drinking out of a bucket yet? Or (at the risk of sounding condescending again) try the igloo feeder. I guess I’m just wondering why you are still sleep -deprived after 10 weeks?
ETA – geeze, talk about ignorant & obtuse!!! I just realized you are probably talking about HUMAN twins, aren’t you???:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Just shows how totally horse-oriented my mind is!
Then all is forgiven, 'cause I KNOW why you are cranky now. Can’t you get those guys to drink o/o a bucket yet???:D:D:D:D
PS, yes, I could have edited this other stuff out, but I figured it would be good for a laugh, especially on this thread! I honestly did not “get” the OP was talking about HUMAN TWINS till just before I pushed the “post” button. Geeze, I’ve been living in the barn too long…
Hmmm…well, from my limited experience – it ain’t easy!!
That’s why Haye’s book makes it VERY clear you need to be there when the water breaks, so you can check positioning THEN. Per her book, you have a quick 5-10 minutes between the breaking of the water and the start of full blown contractions and THAT is the time to fix things. Quick like a bunny fix things.
Per my own experience with a dystocia (a breech), the only way we got straps on the foal was to give the mare an epidural, which stopped labor.
And it took 3 tries to get that done, because every time the vet got the needle in position, the mare would have a contraction, we’d both drive for cover and the needle would go flying across the paddock.
Others can answer this better, but I guess if you can get the mare to stand and STAY standing you might have better luck. But we had no luck doing that…
What a fabulous thread. While it’s terrifying, it is a necessary evil that needs to be discussed. I find it truly fascinating when everything you know goes out the window and people get creative to do their best to save their beloved animals.
I like to think this thread has saved the life (or many lives) of horses world-wide by people who have stumbled across this and perhaps not posted, or were shoulder-deep in a mare’s lady bits while reading step-by-step directions from others with first hand experience.
Koodo’s to all of you for telling your story in the hopes that it will save a life, or at least allow an owner to feel less incapable in the face of Dystocia.
That’s a tough call, but I generally limit it to about 5 minutes of the mare trying to reposition the foal by herself. And again, this is the only presentation in which I would do that.
