Ok, young hunter trainers

[Bristol_Bay]

No, she’s saying that she offers it but some trainers don’t want that much turnout. And clutching her pearls about it.

Look, @vxf111, I have a lot of respect for you and your knowledge of riding. I envy you your tack collection. You are pretty much never blowing smoke. It bothers me that you would consider giving up riding if you had to live in the southwest where we don’t have grass pastures or 24/7 turnout.

This year we’ve seen how the world climate has changed. All that grass and not enough water is why places like Canada and Hawaii burn out of control. It might not be such a regular thing in the future that farm owners can keep their grass green.

But the horses will be fine. Yes, we’d all love to live in green places, but it’s not feasible. Owning acreage and keeping working horses at home is a lifestyle many of us can’t afford or it’s just unrealistic, time wise.
We’re all doing the best we can.

Happy riding.

[MadTrotter]

@vxf111

Half the time when people say their horse doesn’t need/want/like turnout it’s because their “turnout” is totally unenriching.

And/Or, the horse has nothing to chew on and is waiting to go into the barn, where it gets a rich meal that it’s been waiting all day for.

[vxf111]

I respect you too, very much. And I don’t know what to say that my tack collection has reached public
knowledge levels. LOL.

Maybe what you can/can’t deal with as an animal owner depends on your frame of reference. I love cats too much to have pocket pets, I couldn’t keep them safe. I’d rather just not have them than deal with the guilt if something bad happened. I couldn’t have a snub nosed dog or cat despite how adorable I think they are (especially cats) because I don’t think I could keep up with the veterinary needs and give that animal the kind of environment necessary for that type of animal. And I would not want to own a horse that never got to eat grass and run more than 20 feet with another equine. I just couldn’t do it.

I understand limitations and doing the best you can. I cannot understand prioritizing pretty grass or refusing to accept bumps and scratches where someone has pasture and could turnout. I looked at one place in Salt Lake City with beautiful pasture. The owners horses went out on it all day. Boarders got an hour on rotation in a tiny dirt pen. Why? Because more turnout would ruin the grass and the owner cared more about looks than horsemanship. That I can’t stand by. Not having any grass because of climate is different than having it and caring more about looks as compared to horse comfort.

[mrsgrieves]

We do whatever works best for the horse. The horses go out as long as they will handle it (depends on the day 5 minutes or 5 hours). I will not do night turn out. I don’t like it, never have, never will. Our horses have huge paddocks, with tons of plush grass, go out alone, next to other horses, with access to sheds. I’m not going to force one to stay out. If it’s running, pacing, standing at the gate, etc. they come in.

[173north]

@Willesdon

One really important variable in “the best” way to keep a horse is how much work it is doing. Turn out allows constant movement, which is probably the most “natural” thing but a horse putting in four or five hours of work each day doesn’t need that exercise.

I think one aspect of management that people in areas with ample turnout don’t think about — I definitely didn’t before I moved to SoCal — is that good programs in limited-turnout regions have other ways to ensure horses get plenty of movement every day and put a lot of effort into making sure horses are out and moving.

A normal day for a horse at my barn is 2 hours of turnout, 1 hour on the walker, and an hour under saddle bookended by 30+ min of tack walking around the property. A lot of barns here also have treadmills. I would guess our horses get just as much (if not slightly more?) daily movement than some East Coast programs I am familiar with where the horses get 3 - 4 hours of turnout but don’t move that much while out, just graze and hang out at the gate.

Is it the same as having them out 12+ hours a day on grass? No, but horses are adaptable, and I think good horsemanship and care are possible in a lot of different situations if you put in the effort to make the best of your climate and real estate.

[sherian]

this is true, you have to take into account the overall management not just the number of hours in t/o. I switched from free choice hay in turn out to meal fed and pawing on 8 acres in the winter and they stayed fit all winter instead of getting the winter pudge - give horses a round bale and it doesn’t really matter how big a field or how long, it’s not much difference between standing with their head in a round bale for 8 hours after a buck and a roll , or standing in a stall with a haynet for 8 hours after a buck and a roll outside.

[foursocks]

I guess I just don’t understand what people who live in difficult locations or have difficult horses are supposed to do? My young horse goes out with two buddies in a great big field. He loves it. My older horse hates other horses and attacks them (not when I’m riding, he is fine with other horses when we are working, but he is very bad when he is loose in a paddock). Even the ones he seems to like he will bite and kick and be very angry about sharing space. He cannot even share a fenceline. I know this because ALL of his injuries, some of them requiring serious medical intervention, have been due to him throwing a tantrum/attacking another horse/throwing a tantrum in turnout. He goes out by himself in a smaller paddock. We tried giving him a larger one with lots of nice grass and he threw a fit. When we moved to a new barn, we tried again- again with the fit. Galloping wildly around, standing at the gate, jumping up and down. I’ve never had another horse like him. Give him his little solo paddock and normal turnout (unless it’s too buggy and he wants to come in, god forbid no one brings him in because he will THROW A TANTRUM), and he’s a happy boy.

Oh, he also won’t wear a fly mask- he has a scar on his face from the last time I tried that one. I finally got him to wear a fly sheet but it took years before he stopped flinging himself on the ground trying to get it off. Also, he needs it taken off AS SOON AS HE COMES IN OTHERWISE HE WILL HAVE A FIT. And hurt himself.

This is one of the most talented, mellow, perfect horses–he’s an incredible jumper. I can put children and scared people on him and he never puts a foot wrong. He can be handled by anyone. But he is a mess if his turnout isn’t exactly what he wants, so it’s what he gets. Should I put him down because this animal, who has been bred out the wazoo to be a showjumper, doesn’t fit into the mold of what should be good for him re: turnout?

[endlessclimb]

Sounds like he needs to be ignored when he’s having a tantrum, in a pasture or paddock with super hot fences.

I get the “can’t go out with others”. I’ve not owned one but I’ve seen them - its not fair to the kind other horses to let them “work it out.” But the pasture tantrums and the ‘get it off me now or I’ll lose it’ does sound, to me, like something he needs to be allowed to work through (tie him in the stall for 30 minutes with his sheet on when bringing him in, for example).

That said, I’m pretty “old school” when it comes to this stuff. I don’t give in when theyre being brats. I just leave them to it and go do something else, check back in 30 minutes or so.

[trubandloki]

@endlessclimb

Sounds like he needs to be ignored when he’s having a tantrum, in a pasture or paddock with super hot fences.

It sounds like they have tried that and the horse has injured itself, at least that is how I take this part.

@foursocks

I know this because ALL of his injuries, some of them requiring serious medical intervention, have been due to him throwing a tantrum/attacking another horse/throwing a tantrum in turnout.

@foursocks

We tried giving him a larger one with lots of nice grass and he threw a fit. When we moved to a new barn, we tried again- again with the fit. Galloping wildly around, standing at the gate, jumping up and down

[foursocks]

Yep, thanks, trubandloki!

I appreciate the advice, but I am not looking to change him at this point- he’s 15 and has been like this for the last decade I have owned him. I do not need more potentially career-ending injuries, which is what ignoring his tantrums has gotten me. I don’t baby him, but I am realistic. He has a screw in his hock from his last adventure in being a jerk in turnout. I nearly lost him over that one. So…

I used this horse as an example of how we need to be flexible. As I said above, I’ve never come across another one like this, but no one made him this way, he’s just who he is. And if he is kept the way we do now, he is a happy guy. I think a good rule of thumb for horsekeeping is lot of turnout with other horses (which is what my other guy gets), but I’m also not an idiot and I love my horse.

[Mohan]

I think people are missing the OP’s point because they like myself keep horses in less than ideal conditions out of necessity and are taking it personally. Weird but okay.

Given the choice my horse would have all the turn she wanted. That means 24/7 for her. Anyway. The OP’s gripe is about being in an area with plenty of turnout and people choosing not to.

Not because of their horse but because they have learned turnout beyond 2 hours is somehow bad. That’s a problem. A big one. That shouldn’t be the norm if other options are available. Yes every horse is different, but for every horse mentioned here, I can name five that love their turnout.

Barns that limit turn out and say if they run bring them in are more often than not creating the problem. Yes some horses get fed up and want in, but I have a hard time believing it’s an entire barn.

As someone else mentioned horses around the world are kept like that but get WAY more exercise than they do here on average.

[endlessclimb]

Yup. The “go get him if he runs” is likely how the other horse ended up spoiled as he is.

Same with the “take my sheet off now.” Uhh no princess, I’ve got a few other things to do but I’ll be with you in a minute. I’m all for listening to a horse when they’re trying to communicate but there’s a difference between that and catering to a horse’s every whim and desire.

[Mohan]

Some horses legit hate it. I have met very few but I won’t comment on people’s personal horses as I have met some like that.

But this thread is about the broader issue of turnout.

[wanderlust]

The martyrdom over grass turnout on this thread is really something. There are very few places in this country, nevermind the world, that provide the kind of horse keeping a few of you deem acceptable year-round.

Would you not keep horses somewhere the winter weather/ice/mud limits turnout because it’s not always safe for them to go out? Or where the grass goes dormant in the winter? Or where it regularly reaches high heat and humidity in summer with horrible bugs so they stay in to not overheat, stomp their legs off or run like crazy because the bugs are horrible? Where exactly is this shangri-la of perfect large grass pasture year round with, no high heat/humidity, no bugs, and no bad winter/weat weather that you all live in?

I have had horses in California, Washington State, the Mid-atlantic and New England. They all have their benefits and challenges, but they all do just fine in all the places with good management. Do I prefer sizeable grass pasture turnout in small groups? Yes. Have I seen multiple horses with career-ending injuries or put down from pasture injury/kicks from friends in these places despite stellar management? Also yes.

But hey, to each his own.

[Tha_Ridge]

@endlessclimb

Sounds like he needs to be ignored when he’s having a tantrum, in a pasture or paddock with super hot fences.

This very approach cost me a $10k vet bill and nearly cost my mare her life. I will now burn rubber out the driveway of any facility that is OK with keeping an agitated horse outside as a means to “teach” them something or quell a temper tantrum. Not. All. Horses. Need. To. Love. Being. Outside.

[Mohan]

It’s not martyrdom. Why are you taking her comments so personally? I regret moving my horse because I wanted her with me. She would have been 100% better off being a pasture pet back east.

I rode horses that thrive where I’m at and my opinion about my own horse has zero to do with the care where I board. The horses here get grass just like back east.

I regret moving my horse because I realize she would be better off back east. She gets 8-12 hours on pasture but she’d better off back east with 24/7.

Stop taking comments by east coasters personally. She isn’t condemning you for keeping your horses how you do, she’s just saying she can’t do it. And I get it. It’s why my horse is moving to Texas to a friends.

[endlessclimb]

I don’t disagree with you. But a horse throwing a fit is not going to get their desired result out of me. Maybe they’ll get tied for awhile instead. Or maybe they’ll get worked. But throwing a fit doesn’t get them a cushy stall loaded with hay.

[mmeqcenter]

@Bending_Line

Someone in my area just told me that no young hunter trainer in our area turns out for more than 1-2 hours a day, 1-2 horses at a time,

This is extremely common in many disciplines - hunters, dressage, western pleasure, english pleasure, saddleseat, etc. It is not unique to the hunter world.

@Bending_Line

Tell me, internet: do the young trainers not know that they are Bemer blanketing, injecting joints, wrapping legs, Theraplating, treating ulcers, etc., etc. as interventions that are trying to make up for the hours and hours a day of unhealthy confinement?

IME, there’s far more “old” trainers that manage horses this way than young ones. And the experienced trainers are the ones teaching the ones that are up-and-coming that it is an acceptable horse management style.

@NoSuchPerson

Right now, after a couple of hours, they’re all standing at their gates asking to come in. Even when it’s not miserably hot and buggy, they rarely want to stay out for more than 5-6 hours.

That’s because there’s food and/or friends inside. Not because they love their stalls.

[foursocks]

So, I definitely wasn’t reacting to the OP. I agree with the OP in that someone who is uneducated about horsekeeping (horses should ONLY have limited turnout), and then passes that on to their clients is a bad thing.

I ended up getting sucked in to vfx111’s side thing (and now regret it) because I have an issue with those sorts of black and white statements about horsecare.

Anyway, even my bad boy gets lots of turnout- as much as anyone else in the barn. However, if he’s outside stampeding around because the bombers are out, he gets brought in. Ignoring him has never had any effect except injury. One of his tantrums, for example, produced a hole in one of his front tendons. Luckily he is mine and not someone else’s who might ignore this until he had no usable limbs left. /sarcasm

[endlessclimb]