For those who believe its a crappy food, then so be it…I feed Performance and I have an exceptional record of performance, breed, and health…If you do not want to feed it fine…but its not stupid, it has a much longer track record than most of the stuff touted here, and zero recalls. It also has documented proof via blind studies etc, which while I know pales in comparison to all the crap you can read on the internet…but I will stick with proof…My shop carries a variety of food to meet various customer demands. I carry Fromm, Honest Kitchen, Verus, Regal, Canine Cravings. I don’t feed any of them. Not because I do not feel they are fine foods, but like I said, I have an exceptional record and have not drank the Kool Aid on the horribleness of grain, large companies etc. I do however have 2 customers that crapped out the livers of their dogs following some internet freaks idea of a balanced raw diet…Also if you are going to follow the wolf model, consider this, they run 40 miles a day, eat once a week or so, and drop dead around 9…You can not cherry pick the part of the model you want, you have to look at the whole picture. I however, do not try to bully, embarrass or rail on people for having a different idea than me. The food nazis on this board are really tedious. My personal opinion is dogs did fine for years on Kennel Bisquit. If we are producing dogs that need raw, organic, grain free foods, we are not breeding healthy enough dogs, that lack the immune systems to support themselves. I will not breed dogs like that. The should not have to be coddled to do well…Funny thing, back in the days of Kennel Bisquit you hardly ever saw skin allergies, immune sytemn issues etc. I believe it is less than adequate breeding, the refusal to look honestly at your breeding stock, dogs not receiving enough exercise that have led to the majority of these issues, both physical and mental…Feel free to do what you want and so will I. I however, will not be up in your face about it, implying you are stupid. I also believe that horses should get oats, some hay, plenty of fresh water, lots of exercise and very little supplementation and they do not need to be micro managed except at the highest level of competition.
And by the way, I AM a certified veterinary nutritionalist, which I doubt many of you are.
Tradewind: just to be clear, my post wasn’t aimed at you, and i have no problem with some grains in dog food. I don’t even have a problem with corn in dog food if everything else is balanced. I don’t have a problem with Pro Plan, having fed it before and seen dogs that did well on it. But MY dogs hated it and did poorly on it. So i stay away from it.
I raise bird dogs and i hunt them. They are hardy, active dogs. I need a dog food that works for them and i think i’ve found a good one.
I have no doubt you are educated on the subject, and i agree that the whole “food Nazi” trend is annoying. I get the “feed raw!!” from another Springer breeder all the time and i ignore it.
But holy COW your posts set my teeth on edge.
I understand where you are coming from and don’t necessarily disagree with you but if i were someone wanting to learn about pet nutrition, your tone would put me off. Instantly.
For the record, i LOVE the three internet sites on dog food i posted. Why? because they DISAGREE WITH EACH OTHER frequently. When i looked up my new dog food on those sites, two thought it was just fine and one disliked it because it had “controversial” ingredients like corn (even though only one of the varieties of food has corn in it). Those three sites balance each other simply because one is slightly over the top food-Nazi-ish and the other two are not. All three have great information. A relatively intelligent person can wade through it all and pick a food that works for them. As i just did.
Cheers.
Wow, never jumped on anyone about what they feed…I have met dogs that lived long healthy lives on Kibbles and Bits and I really don’t care. Didn’t call anyone stupid either. Unfortunately, I have a dog with allergies and he cannot have the ingredients in Pro-Plan. First difficult dog I have ever owned and the other could probably survive on dirt.
I should also mention he can’t have lamb, does okay on chicken, have not tried duck or venison. He did so so on the Pro-Plan Sensitive some time ago, but really chewed his feet off and pooped tons…that is still a lot of money for that.
I thought California Nat was P&G now…darn. They Herring and Sweet potato was looking like the closest match. I do not want to ever have to go to Kangaroo…pricey and I was feeding it to a dog and work and the smell was ack…
Oh, had a bag of Pennicle and had to take it back because he wouldn’t eat it.
Looks like the Hi-Tek is too high in protein. There was a Dogswell that looked close. I am ok with ordering it.
I’m trying the Pro-Plan Select Salmon and Rice. Fingers crossed. So far, they like it. My 4Health was on the recall list. So it’s rice and chicken while slowly adding in the Pro-Plan. I just hope my collie doesn’t start chewing on her leg again. My elder cocker is on veterinary diet (Hills U/D) for calcium oxalate stones…we won’t be changing that.
[QUOTE=tradewind;6297928]
And by the way, I AM a certified veterinary nutritionalist, which I doubt many of you are.[/QUOTE]
certified through the ACVN after completing your DVM? What food companies sponsored your program? The vet school closest to me only teaches science diet, purina, and iams. There is no discussion about grain free, home-cooked, or raw. This isn’t heresy, I have a friend who just completed her nutrition class and those are the only brands discussed in regards to small animal nutrition.
Maybe you’re just drinking a different flavor of koolaid than the rest of us ;).
It was mandated through the vet I worked for…It was a college level course that ran an entire semester, given at a vet school, the certificate says certified veterinary nutritionalist. I did not pick the title. I took this course over 20 years ago, as did everyone who worked for him. We did alot of the discussing of food choices after the vet saw them and he wanted us to be as informed as possible…I say good for him. He was ahead of his time in alot of areas., and no I do not have a DVM, nor do I ever pretend to be one. And if I set anyones teeth on edge, sorry, but my teeth have been on edge since every time somone posts on this forum about any food that is not grain free, or raw, the implication from many posters on this board is that they are idiots, incompetent or both…sick to death of it…every food type has benefits and detriments. Just like my clients who literally sent their dogs into liver failure. All non related, all mixed breeds of various types. It may work for alot of dogs, but certainly not them. There is no one right or wrong way to feed a dog, horse or person. There are lots of methods that work depending on the indvidual. And I do believe there are lots more problems than there used to be with dogs due to many breeders making excuses for the issues they have. They blame the food, the vaccines, the owners etc…when the problem lies in the fact that they are not making appropriate breeding decisions. I by the way, was not the one using the term stupid, nor was I reccomending a food for anybody…I was making a point that the food that I happen to feed (which was not known) was stupid…I say feed what you want and what does well for your dog, and stop slamming everyone else and using dispariging terms.
Just for the record, when I say I choose a food that was formulated by a board certified veterinary nutritionist I mean one that has a DVM degree and then has spent the years required in a residency program in nutrition, and has published papers and then has been board certified.
I was not referring to you, I was stating that I do have some qualifications besides what I read on the internet. Sorry if that caused confusion.
I am VERY open minded about dog food. If it works, if a dog is healthy and happy, that’s awesome. I dislike food nazis as much (well, almost as much) as i dislike barefoot nazis. I walk away from elitists who think their way is the only way (which i’ve run into with the raw diet folks).
I like to learn about dog food. I think it’s important for any dog owner, but as a breeder i think it’s even more important. But one thing i know for a fact is that certification or not, SOMEONE with as much certification as you (collective you) can and will disagree with you at some point. So where does that leave the rest of us?
So i read, and listen, and learn, and ask questions. And i refer to the three sites previously posted.
THEN i make my decision.
Just another option for you to look into.
A dog food pre-mix. Dr. Harvey’s, Soho’s, Honest Kitchen.
These are dehydtated mixes already balanced, no need to add anything else other than real meat, either cooked or raw, makes home DF preparation pretty simple.
Can get them without grains.
Hey Mara - I’m trying to find a new food for my parents’ dogs as well - they’re currently on TOTW.
I guess I do my research in a little different way than some other folks do - I find brands that I like and can get locally and then I visit the company websites to compare “label information” - I’m mostly concerned with protein and fat content, ingredients and calories per cup. (The ‘rents’ dogs are easy keepers, and do very well on grain free, so I do limit my selections to grain free.)
Not sure what the relevant stats on Nature’s Domain are, but for TOTW, my “best matches” are currently: Evo Senior formula, Nature’s Variety Instinct in the Duck, Salmon, Turkey (limited ingredient) and Lamb (limited ingredient) formulas. Wellness Core is pretty good (but pricey) and Acana is comparable, but tougher to find and pretty expensive. (I want to like Orijen, but it doesn’t agree with my girls’ GI tracts for some reason, in addition to being harder to find and more expensive.)
None of these brands are a perfect match to TOTW - most of them have slightly higher %s of protein and/or fat and they ALL have more kcals per cup, so along with the transition, I’ll be suggesting that Mom and Dad cut portion size down a little as well.
well, I’m going to horrify all and suggest you just keep feeding your Kirkland food. If you’re not interested in paying a lot of money (which is understandable), it’s a fine food, better than many, especially if you consider the price.
Did you notice the recall was about salmonella? of all the things you could accidentally put into dog food, that’s one I wouldn’t worry about too much. Most dogs don’t get sick at all from eating salmonella. They actually recalled the food this time around mostly because people were getting sick from handling the food. Lots of people feed dogs raw chicken, laden with salmonella. Just wash your hands after feeding the dog.
If you have no issues with the food other than this latest recall? why dump it? presumably you knew who made it before the recall and didn’t have a problem with the manufacturer being diamond; and you liked the ingredient list and price.
If you want top-of-the-line food, well, they get pricey.
[QUOTE=Beckham03;6298072]
Wow, never jumped on anyone about what they feed…I have met dogs that lived long healthy lives on Kibbles and Bits and I really don’t care. Didn’t call anyone stupid either. Unfortunately, I have a dog with allergies and he cannot have the ingredients in Pro-Plan. First difficult dog I have ever owned and the other could probably survive on dirt.
I should also mention he can’t have lamb, does okay on chicken, have not tried duck or venison. He did so so on the Pro-Plan Sensitive some time ago, but really chewed his feet off and pooped tons…that is still a lot of money for that.
I thought California Nat was P&G now…darn. They Herring and Sweet potato was looking like the closest match. I do not want to ever have to go to Kangaroo…pricey and I was feeding it to a dog and work and the smell was ack…
Oh, had a bag of Pennicle and had to take it back because he wouldn’t eat it.
Looks like the Hi-Tek is too high in protein. There was a Dogswell that looked close. I am ok with ordering it.[/QUOTE]
What is wrong with P&G? I know they are a mega-market corporation that makes everything from pamper’s to pringles to dog food… But what’s so wrong with their dog food?
I I like to learn about dog food. I think it’s important for any dog owner, but as a breeder i think it’s even more important. But one thing i know for a fact is that certification or not, SOMEONE with as much certification as you (collective you) can and will disagree with you at some point. So where does that leave the rest of us?
So i read, and listen, and learn, and ask questions. And i refer to the three sites previously posted.
THEN i make my decision.
yeah. I like to read actual science too, you know, studies? where we find out things that aren’t opinions? Of course the facts aren’t complete, so at the end of the day we have to form an opinion based on what facts we have gathered. And then if we get presented with new facts, we might have to change our opinions. Which is a big stumbling block for some people.
From the studies I’ve read, the most important information is listed on the bag in the % guaranteed analysis. This is more important than the actual ingredient list. What dogs need to be healthy is protein and fat. If the fat % on this list is less than 18%, you simply don’t want this food, it won’t support your dogs health lifelong. If the protein is less than 27%, you simply don’t want this food, it won’t support your dogs health lifelong. You should note the fiber %: some dogs definitely do better on less or more fiber, but that is an individual thing. Once you’ve figured out your dog is gassy on 6% fiber, you can avoid those foods, or if your dog has sloppy stool if the fiber isn’t 6%, you’re good to go.
Next you check the ingredients. I find this is a great site about how to read dog food labels, I didn’t see if anyone had posted it above already:
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=betterproducts
and whatever you end up feeding, you need to be adding a source of omega-3 fatty acids. Fish oils- salmon body oil, sardine oil, something. Very important, especially for puppies. Even if the bag claims it’s full of the stuff, it’s unstable, and won’t be full of it by the time your dog eats it.
Also don’t trust anyone. Many people suggest hedging your bets by rotating through different brands of food- in case one manufacturer messed up in some way, hopefully the other brands will cover the deficit. Example, if Manufacturer A’s vitamin mix is a bit deficient in Micronutrient Z, and Manufacturer B’s vitamin mix has a tiny amount of toxin Q, and Manufacturer C’s vitamin mix has too much of Micronutrient R, by rotating through these brands hopefully you’ll achieve a proper balance in the dog. Sticking with one brand through the life of the dog is not a very good idea, over time those minor nutritional deficiencies and minor toxin levels can start to cause overt problems.
Another way to hedge your bets is to supplement. Yes, give your dog fresh foods. Most of us like to treat our dogs, so here’s your chance. Table scraps, home-made chicken jerky, training treats, the occasional raw meal, the occasional venture into home-cooking dog stew. Why not? could add some essential micronutrients the processed dry food is missing. Plus the raw meals will help clean the teeth.
Then of course there is the question of how to judge if your dog is “doing well” on his diet. Obviously if he’s puking, has gas, has diarrhea, is lethargic, is chewing his feet off, has constant ear infections, etc. he’s not doing well, but how do you define the opposite? it’s not as easy as you might think. Especially if you’ve only been exposed to dogs fed inappropriate diets you might not even realize that healthy dogs don’t have an offensive body odor, don’t have bad breath, nor do they poop six times a day, puke every other day, need their anal glands manually expressed, or have dandruff or constant offensive gas. You’d be amazed at how many people think dog odor and dog gas are normal- well, they aren’t. They are for the most part caused by the dog not doing well on his food. If someone claims his dogs are “going great” on Diet Z, but you can tell by one sniff after entering his home that he has dogs, well, his dogs aren’t doing as well on Diet Z as he is hoping.
also many nutritional problems don’t show up overtly, but slowly accumulate over time, and you may not notice your dog’s coat is starting to look like crap after four years on Diet Z, and you may not ever realize that your dog is lethargic on Diets A, B, and C, since you’ve never fed him anything else to compare against, and you will never know if your dog would be easier to train if only someone had fed him a fish oil supplement when he was a puppy (proven fact that puppies who aren’t fed fish oil supplements grow up mentally impaired), and you will probably never know for sure if the diabetes or liver disease your dog develops at age 10 are due to what you decided to feed him six years ago.
Great post wendy - it IS amazing what people take as normal simply because it’s common. It doesn’t matter whether you’re talking dogs or cats or hooves or riding styles. Common does not automatically mean correct. And unfortunately, if that’s all you know (and when it’s common, it may really BE all you know), it’s a case of “you don’t know what you don’t know”.
Our dogs have dog breath…if you’re in their face (or they in yours :lol:) But no, you can’t smell it 2’ away, and you’d never think we had dogs in the house (if you don’t look at the hair ;)) because they don’t smell like dogs, not even if you stick your nose in their fur. Ok, maybe after they’ve been running on a hot day and got rained on 
But you go to the shelter and pet a dog or two, many of whom are surrenders from “can’t afford”, or rescues off the street, who certainly aren’t eating a high quality diet at the shelter, and you can hardly stand yourself because your hands smell so bad :dead:
That’s not at all normal, even if it is common.
Count me in with the Pro Plan fans. I’ve fed it just about since it came on the market. My dogs have all done great on it and I’ve fed a bunch of them from cradle to grave on Pro Plan products. For those of you who have dogs who are sensitive to corn or wheat products, look in to the Pro Plan Selects. They use grains such as barley, pea protien, etc. I feed my daughter’s allergic dog the Pro Plan Selects.
Bumper, what are you feeding your springers? I’m having a hard time finding a food that mine likes enough to do more than “survive” off of.
[QUOTE=tradewind;6298170]
It was mandated through the vet I worked for…It was a college level course that ran an entire semester, given at a vet school, the certificate says certified veterinary nutritionalist. I did not pick the title. I took this course over 20 years ago, as did everyone who worked for him. We did alot of the discussing of food choices after the vet saw them and he wanted us to be as informed as possible…I say good for him. He was ahead of his time in alot of areas., and no I do not have a DVM, nor do I ever pretend to be one. And if I set anyones teeth on edge, sorry, but my teeth have been on edge since every time somone posts on this forum about any food that is not grain free, or raw, the implication from many posters on this board is that they are idiots, incompetent or both…sick to death of it…every food type has benefits and detriments. Just like my clients who literally sent their dogs into liver failure. All non related, all mixed breeds of various types. It may work for alot of dogs, but certainly not them. There is no one right or wrong way to feed a dog, horse or person. There are lots of methods that work depending on the indvidual. And I do believe there are lots more problems than there used to be with dogs due to many breeders making excuses for the issues they have. They blame the food, the vaccines, the owners etc…when the problem lies in the fact that they are not making appropriate breeding decisions. I by the way, was not the one using the term stupid, nor was I reccomending a food for anybody…I was making a point that the food that I happen to feed (which was not known) was stupid…I say feed what you want and what does well for your dog, and stop slamming everyone else and using dispariging terms.[/QUOTE]
Do you not think there has been a lot of advances and new scientific studies done since you studied one “entire semester” over 20 years ago?
[QUOTE=tradewind;6297921]
My personal opinion is dogs did fine for years on Kennel Bisquit. If we are producing dogs that need raw, organic, grain free foods, we are not breeding healthy enough dogs, that lack the immune systems to support themselves. I will not breed dogs like that. The should not have to be coddled to do well…Funny thing, back in the days of Kennel Bisquit you hardly ever saw skin allergies, immune sytemn issues etc. I believe it is less than adequate breeding, the refusal to look honestly at your breeding stock, dogs not receiving enough exercise that have led to the majority of these issues, both physical and mental…Feel free to do what you want and so will I. I however, will not be up in your face about it, implying you are stupid. I also believe that horses should get oats, some hay, plenty of fresh water, lots of exercise and very little supplementation and they do not need to be micro managed except at the highest level of competition.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for saying it better than I could have. The domestic dog did not evolve on special diets, supplements or anything else much more than breeding for a working reason and culling those that did not fit the bill.
A lot of what is breeding stock now would never have made it back before the Industrial age. We may have evolved in some ways, but in others we are devolving.
I try to stick with the simple diet kibble (currently on Wellness) and feed several different products as training paychecks.
