Use the 10 m circle to slow him down or a smaller circle than you are on if he is not up to that yet. A proper circle with no speed boat turns.
Yanking on the bit is not helping anyone. A bit is only as good as the hands on the other end. Yanking hands are not good hands. Do you have an instructor?
Sometimes a thinner bit is kinder than a fat bit as the horse responds to it better so no yanking. I really think a good instructor is what you need though.
Schiller is amazing. And he has gotten even better.
OP, I think most people have missed your point. I remember the video where he talks about letting go of the reins and letting the horse pick its own speed and direction. Horses really respond to that freedom. But 90% of the riders I see are too scared to let go, they always have a reason why they can’t truly let go, and that reason is always the horses fault. Go figure.
@Xanthoria I get what you’re saying, I had an ottb mare that thrived on a crisp gallop (on an absolutely loose rein) to get the cobwebs out of her head. 🙂
I agree haha. Maybe I should have left OTTB out of it, that seems to spawn all kinds of different opinions. But you know what, he does the same thing with his OTTB that he does with every other horse… cause its still a horse!! And the stuff still works :lol:
I agree for sure, being able to WTC on the buckle is pretty much a prerequisite for a horse being able to work happy and relaxed on a contact. I used to work a lot with OTTBs, and it’s one of the first things we’d try and teach them.
Nothing is absolute in training horses, of course. There’ll always be horses who won’t accept it or won’t be safe with it. But I think it’s a great skill to practice if you can. As an added bonus, it’s also a great way to practice staying quiet and balanced without relying on the reins for balance.
Totally off topic, did you watch the one with one of his assistants riding the tb? You could see she was nervous about giving him his head. After about two minutes… magic. 🙂
I haven’t seen that one but I believe it. As @Gumby80 said it does great things for the rider too. It takes a lot of strength and balance to stay with them when you have no idea where they are going to choose to go. May not be safe for every horse but I know it was an eye opener/confidence booster for me that I could completely let go and she wasnt going to try to kill us both :winkgrin:
A yank implies a timing issue to me because generally a yank is so quick that the horse doesn’t get a chance to respond before the pressure is released. So it’s pointless from a training perspective. The horse needs to respond before the release.
When you halt, are you waiting for him to accept the halt before you release the rein pressure? If his feet stop, but his jaw is still braced against you, you need to keep the rein on until he says yes to the halt, then release the rein and have him stand there flat footed before moving off.
Also if he is leaning on both reins, really fast turns from one direction to the other (like one or two steps before going the new way) to get him listening/soft to one rein at a time is helpful. Do it until the switch from one rein to the other is so fast that eventually is is just travelling straight and light in both reins.
This sounds absolutely brutal. There’s no way you can prep a horse for turning this fast “inside leg to outside rein”, and would undoubtedly end up being glorified see-sawing. I can’t see this working well, and by description is front to back riding.
Maybe it’s just me though.
I’d be more inclined to use bend and counterbend to lighten a heavy horse up one side at a time.
I guess “Yanking” was not a really accurate description. I am constantly having a conversation with him through my hands. He is just extremely heavy in your hands, always. And the more you lengthing the reins and lighten the contact, the heavier and faster he can get. Some days are great, but other days he just speeds/plows through everything. Due to his previous work, speed is his go to answer for everything. We do tons of circles, serpentines, leg yeilding, transitions, etc, anything to try and get him softer and listening. Just thought perhaps as this was being discussed (sorta) there might be some additional ideas for things that have not yet been tried with this guy.
He is also a very large beast, and i am quite little, so all things considered, I’m probably not using as much force as you are imagining.
I actually kind of do your last suggestion already, and I think I get what you mean. It’s not really a change of direction, but the thought of a change? Just very soft.
As for halting, that is a work in progress as well. He has been allowed to walk off as soon as you mount his entire life, (that has now changed!!) and was allowed to pretty much pick his destination. Retraining the older, spoiled horse can be interesting.
He does halt now, and has learnt to stand still. That was a challenge. It used to be halt, and try and walk off immediately.
Just to add, when lunging, this horse is also a speed demon. I’ve gotten him to the point where he will slow down a bit with my voice, but he still prefers to trot like the hounds of hell are after him. It is just his go to speed, and I’m trying to slow it down.
It’s not spooking, or equipment, and he is not being a nutbar. His trot is just so huge.
No, it’s a change of direction, and if the horse is braced it can be quite firm.
ie, the whole horse turns and faces 9 o’clock for two strides and then the whole horse turns and faces 3 o’clock for two strides, all the way up quarter line. Repeat to lessening degrees as he gets more responsive until he follows his nose lightly and easily.
As the horse gets softer you start turning to 10 and 2, then 11 and 1, until you’re straight.
I have seen a dressage trainer do what were essentially 7 meter serpentines in canter (keeping the lead), to get the horse soft, not bracing, and lightly even in both reins.
Any time a horse I’m on braces, I do a quick left right left (actual moving the shoulders turns,not see sawing), and then continue.
Being just very soft reinforces the horse tuning you to blah. He can do what he likes while quietly in the background you are being just very soft.
You need to be loud enough and sharp enough that you get an answer.
If you get a chance to clinic with Leif Aho,he teaches this really well. He is super horse friendly and correct - it sounds a little crazy in text but in real life it makes total sense and is very effective while still being horse friendly.
They can’t brace if they’re turning a million times a minute. And it’s not a harsh, constant pulling war. It’s just turn turn turn turn, and then smaller turns, and then even in both reins and going straight. And the whole horse has to turn, not just bend his necks and look. The front feet have to move off the line of travel, then back across and over the other way, etc.
I’m still not falling for this. There’s a million ways to get this done that doesn’t involve ripping on a horses face and riding front to back. I can think of no better way to get a horse bulging through their shoulders, losing their haunches, avoiding an outside rein connection, and avoiding contact all together than by doing abrupt about faces every two strides.
Nowhere in here do you mention the rider’s role in a pulling war. It takes two.
I can think of no better way to get a horse bulging through their shoulders, tilting their head, losing their haunches, avoiding an outside rein connection, and avoiding contact all together than by doing abrupt about faces every stride until the horse “softens”.
Transitions, flex and counterflexing, shoulder in, leg yield facing the rail, 15m circles while giving the horse a chance by floating the inside rein every few strides, spiral in and out, and if he’s a real bulldozer, lifting your hands until he can’t lean and then lowering them back down to give him a chance (you can do this one rein at a time on a bend, too).
I mean, you don’t have to.
The technique was taught in a clinic by a USDF gold medalist who gets 70%s+ in the big classes in Wellington on self-developed horses, who regularly trains with Heather Blitz. You can not watch this man ride and be unimpressed by what an incredibly kind rider he is and how happy his horses are to work for him. One of the people watching who thought he was great has gotten her own horse to an Olympic gold (not with her riding, but she did all the care and management of his career). This was not some clueless hill billy convention.
All clinic participants were willing to try it (to the degree their horses required it, and some didn’t need a lot and others needed more), and even lower level riders were able to incorporate the technique and improve their horse.
A veterinarian who is a lovely, kind rider, and who has a very sensitive trigger for considering riding harsh or abusive flies this guy in from Florida on a monthly basis because she doesnt like anyone else and the horses and riders do so well with him.
I went to the clinic with an ottb who had a remedial approach to the contact that I had been trying to improve for at least a year and while progress had been made, it was slow going. These clinics made a dramatic improvement and the horse is going lighter and straighter now in the past couple months than he ever did in the first year.
But by all means, don’t even consider it. It’s definitely a terrible idea and you who were not even at the clinic and havent even tried it surely know more about it than those of us who were there and gave it a whirl.
The leaning and being heavy is caused from incorrect timing of the hands and or also from lunging in elastic side reins.
So we will look at it from the elastic side reins point of view to understand what is happening.
Horses learn from release of pressure. They give a little pull, the elastic gives, that is a release of pressure and voila dobbins has been taught to pull.
Dobbin leans on the elastic side reins, the elastic gives, there is a release of pressure and voila Dobbin has been taught to lean and be heavy.
Now in this scenario he is on the lunge with no rider, so as you can see it is the timing that is incorrect and it has nothing to do with the rider or how big the horse is.
Now for ease of explaining lets change the scenario to a horse on the lunge in solid side reins, what happens now?
Side reins should never be tight. It is not solid side reins that kill and maim horses. It is the incorrect use of side reins that kill and maim horses.
The horse pulls. As with your hands the side reins do not pull, they hold until the horse gives. They then go slack when the horse gives, which is a release of pressure and Dobbin has been taught to give. The same when Dobbin leans, the reins hold and do not give until Dobbin gives, which is a release of pressure and Dobbin learns to give.
Now most importantly the above is what happens with a knowledgeable horse. In reality if your horse does not know that giving will cause you to give, it is extremely dangerous for the rider. You are teaching a being who does not understand English. A horse who does not know what you want. Get on and demand and the horse can rear up and go over backwards.
The exercise above of the dressage rider is the dressage rider doing what they can to trick the horse into giving so that the dressage rider can give, a soft way without putting pressure on the horse and keeping the rider safe. You just need that first give so you can Give as Horses learn quite fast.
I have found another way. A school horse in a group lesson who WOULD NOT give that 1st give. Not $@$/# once. Then ridden by beginners the rest of the week.
On the 3Rd ride on the ground waiting to be mounted, I taught the horse to release to pressure with a bridle. Teach good boy and let them know that is a good thing.
Do this with one rein then the other rein and the word down. Until down is coming quite well.
Hop on in halt adding a stroke on the neck when they give and in my case the words Good Girl. Next ask for walk. It is not long before happening in trot
Next instructor sees the change in their school horse in the group lesson and texts you asking if you want solo lessons on that horse.
The only difference between bend and counter bend and turning and turning is if the feet move off the line of travel.
Also, setting a horse up with inside leg and outside rein etc is more advanced, restricted steering. If they’re bracing, it’s too much holding.
Just asking a horse to take a step or two towards his nose to the right and then a step or two towards his nose to the left, and just follow the rein, no other aids layered on top, is not “brutal”.
Many horses un-brace when allowed to just follow the rein, rather than having to also listen to inside leg and outside rein and exactly how much bend do you have and all the other things.
Once they follow the rein easily then you can add on the other aids.
It’s fine though, I am just sharing a clinic experience which I found helpful and which definitely worked for the horse I came with. No one else needs to try to learn it if they dont want to.
What?
If the horse “gives a pull” and stretches the rein, the rein is under more tension, not less.
Put a hair elastic around two fingers and then try to spread your fingers apart. Is there more or less pressure when your fingers are together, or spread apart “giving a pull”?
I guess I have to see a video to understand because I’m a nincompoop. But I dont understand how riding 3 o’clock to 9 o’clock every 2 steps can be construed as anything but pulling a horse around on the forehand, and riding front to back, trying to create softness in the mouth when really it comes from the leg.
which goes against everything I’ve been taught.
again, I’ll put on my dunce cap. I’ll also keep using my exercises which have worked well for me, and skip this one.
I think I’ll skip subjecting this lovely clinician’s technique to your expert critical internet analysis, since you already know you hate it and have nothing to learn from him, but he’ll be back in WNY come spring, and auditing is free.
I usually bring snacks for everyone, so come on out.
I too think your description of the exercise is failing to communicate what is actually occuring. Which is fine. It is inherently difficult to put into words everything one is doing, feeling from the horse, adjusting actions to get the desired response, and so on. This exercise must be one that needs to be gotten directly from the trainer.
Thank you, meupatdoes, for the detailed description. I think I understand what you are doing and why. It is certainly something worth trying. Next time I ride the beast, I will give it a go and see what happens. It can’t hurt.
And thank you everyone else for the replies.
Sorry I kind of hijacked the thread, I didn’t mean to. I should have started a new thread.
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