On to the Belmont 2018 - who's bandwagon are you on? post KD and Preakness

[snaffle1987]

I am surprised that more trainers don’t at least jog the horses for greater distances in combination with their morning routine gallops; especially when leading up to the triple crown races and the Belmont. Yes they are extremely fit, evidence in that was Justify’s blazing work yesterday and he still wanted to GO after he was pulled up, but fit doesn’t equal stamina. Churchill doesn’t have any cross country terrain to train on like they do overseas but trotting around the track for a few laps in addition to the usual morning gallop would be beneficial in improving stamina and overall fitness for distance. In addition it is much less wear and tear on the legs and body

I think pedigree has very little to do with running the Belmont or any 1.5 mile race. I think it has everything to do with current training practices which are the product of American races being shorter distances. I always find it kind of laughable when people make a big deal out of pedigrees in terms of running 1.5 miles. I think Pedigree has the least affect on the race. Breezing a half mile isn’t really indicative of a horse’s stamina and overall fitness for distance. Sure, every racehorse needs to go out and breeze every few weeks as part of the regular training but how many of them come out of the barn every morning and see the track for more than 10 minutes or take more than 1 lap around in total? few. Simple answer is we don’t train for stamina here. Whereas overseas, the horses go out and work on hills and cross country terrain everyday and they work considerably more distance with less emphasis on speed… They are a different type of fit

[Laurierace]

Pedigree influences the amount of slow twitch and fast twitch muscles a horse has so very much factors in to the Belmont distance. Obviously those muscles have to be conditioned to be up to the task but I think It’s safe to assume Bob knows how to train a horse by now so I wouldn’t worry about that part.

[mommy_peanut]

@snaffle1987

I am surprised that more trainers don’t at least jog the horses for greater distances in combination with their morning routine gallops; especially when leading up to the triple crown races and the Belmont. Yes they are extremely fit, evidence in that was Justify’s blazing work yesterday and he still wanted to GO after he was pulled up, but fit doesn’t equal stamina. Churchill doesn’t have any cross country terrain to train on like they do overseas but trotting around the track for a few laps in addition to the usual morning gallop would be beneficial in improving stamina and overall fitness for distance. In addition it is much less wear and tear on the legs and body

I think pedigree has very little to do with running the Belmont or any 1.5 mile race. I think it has everything to do with current training practices which are the product of American races being shorter distances. I always find it kind of laughable when people make a big deal out of pedigrees in terms of running 1.5 miles. I think Pedigree has the least affect on the race. Breezing a half mile isn’t really indicative of a horse’s stamina and overall fitness for distance. Sure, every racehorse needs to go out and breeze every few weeks as part of the regular training but how many of them come out of the barn every morning and see the track for more than 10 minutes or take more than 1 lap around in total? few. Simple answer is we don’t train for stamina here. Whereas overseas, the horses go out and work on hills and cross country terrain everyday and they work considerably more distance with less emphasis on speed… They are a different type of fit

bolding is mine…
Not sure of his current training methods, but didn’t Matz add in more long & slow sessions, lots of jogs/gallops with his horses when he first came over from the land of show jumping? I remember there being quite the discussion on his training methods & that they didn’t fit what was considered the norm.

I’m sure there have been other trainers using non typical training methods as well.

[snaffle1987]

@mommy peanut

bolding is mine…
Not sure of his current training methods, but didn’t Matz add in more long & slow sessions, lots of jogs/gallops with his horses when he first came over from the land of show jumping? I remember there being quite the discussion on his training methods & that they didn’t fit what was considered the norm.

I’m sure there have been other trainers using non typical training methods as well.

yes. and he is based/was based at Fair Hill training center where a lot of TB’s stabled there do a lot of off-track work. Maybe not a serious as they do in Europe but they have the land available there to work the horses in the fields and such. I’d imagine that the horses stabled at facilities like that are mentally in great shape as well.

Call me different but I would think a lot of long trot work around the tracks/or slow gallops as well as their usually daily gallops would only help improve stamina while minimizing wear and tear on the body.

But here in the USA I think our training practices have grown to be ultra quick, horses are on and off the track within 10-15 minutes tops because they don’t need the stamina to race here anymore unless your racing over jumps or on turf.

I have a lot of respect for Matz.

[snaffle1987]

@Laurierace

Pedigree influences the amount of slow twitch and fast twitch muscles a horse has so very much factors in to the Belmont distance. Obviously those muscles have to be conditioned to be up to the task but I think It’s safe to assume Bob knows how to train a horse by now so I wouldn’t worry about that part.

have they autopsied horses to prove this statement? Or is it more of an assumed trait on certain pedigrees?

[Laurierace]

A google search brings up several sources, here is one of the oldies but goodies.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0737080684800830

[GoodTimes]

@snaffle1987

have they autopsied horses to prove this statement? Or is it more of an assumed trait on certain pedigrees?

I don’t think any studies have been done to link a certain percentage of fiber types to certain pedigrees. All thoroughbreds have 80-90% fast twitch fibers. It isn’t simply fast twitch vs slow twitch though. Fast twitch (Type II) can be further separated into Type II A fibers and Type II B fibers. The type A fibers are capable of using both aerobic and anaerobic metabolism and are used to maintain high speeds. ie the Belmont. Type B fibers are highly anaerobic and contribute to the success of sprinters.

[findeight]

Most racers in the states are not based anywhere with much room and must share the racetrack with a full card of races 4 to 6 days a week. There aren’t enough hours in the day for everybody to do long trot sets.

[Palm_Beach]

OMG seriously we are not back to all that silliness? These horses are racing for 1 - 2 minutes. Long trot sets and long slow gallops do not affect race performance at the distances we race. Steeplechase, sure. Eventing, sure. Not flat racing.

I can’t imagine why someone would advocate doubling the miles on those tb joints and legs. WRT jogging v galloping, it’s not uncommon for a horse to be way more calm and comfortable and go much easier on themselves at the gallop. They don’t exactly drop their heads and relax when jogging against traffic on a busy track. They are frequently tense and reactive and pound around. Each leg hits the track 4x as many times as it would if the horse galloped the same distance.

With people, you actually put less strain on your bones and joints if you run at a faster pace because you take bigger steps and therefore fewer steps in a specified distance.

[LuvRedHeads]

@GoodTimes

I don’t think any studies have been done to link a certain percentage of fiber types to certain pedigrees. All thoroughbreds have 80-90% fast twitch fibers. It isn’t simply fast twitch vs slow twitch though. Fast twitch (Type II) can be further separated into Type II A fibers and Type II B fibers. The type A fibers are capable of using both aerobic and anaerobic metabolism and are used to maintain high speeds. ie the Belmont. Type B fibers are highly anaerobic and contribute to the success of sprinters.

This is so interesting. Is there a comparison available anywhere of the percentage of fast twitch fibers in TBs (80-90% as quoted above) versus the percentage of fast twitch fibers in other breeds? Just to satisfy my curiosity.

[GoodTimes]

@LuvRedHeads

This is so interesting. Is there a comparison available anywhere of the percentage of fast twitch fibers in TBs (80-90% as quoted above) versus the percentage of fast twitch fibers in other breeds? Just to satisfy my curiosity.

In a quick search I wasn’t able to find anything specific, just that quarter horses have similar skeletal muscle composition to TBs. Most other breeds would have a lower percentage of fast twitch fibers.
Humans on average have about a 50/50 composition.

The problem with training to increase a certain type of skeletal muscle is that the other types will often decrease. So by training for endurance or stamina you’ll lose some of that contractile speed. The opposite is also true. Obviously there has to be a happy medium as far as training goes.

[caffeinated]

@Palm Beach

. Each leg hits the track 4x as many times as it would if the horse galloped the same distance.

With people, you actually put less strain on your bones and joints if you run at a faster pace because you take bigger steps and therefore fewer steps in a specified distance.

I don’t think that’s true - fewer strikes doesn’t necessarily mean less strain. As you add speed you add momentum and force of impact to each step, so you might take fewer steps but each one results in more shock/force travelling up the leg.

(I’m not a race trainer so don’t have much to add on which methods might be “better” - but the number of steps taken isn’t the whole picture when it comes to wear and tear, at all, for horses or humans)

[vineyridge]

Years ago, I read that TBs have a higher proportion of a type of muscle fiber that can convert to either long twitch or short twitch with training.

[Palm_Beach]

@caffeinated

I don’t think that’s true - fewer strikes doesn’t necessarily mean less strain. As you add speed you add momentum and force of impact to each step, so you might take fewer steps but each one results in more shock/force travelling up the leg.

(I’m not a race trainer so don’t have much to add on which methods might be “better” - but the number of steps taken isn’t the whole picture when it comes to wear and tear, at all, for horses or humans)

Nope.

"But speeding up may also be good for your body: Running at a quicker pace could lessen overall stress on your knees by 30 percent, versus a slower pace, according to a new study in the Journal of Orthopedic and Sports Physical Therapy.
Researchers looked at recreational runners between the ages of 22 and 42 who logged 1,000 meters at 5.1, 7.3, and 9.8 miles per hour. They found that as the runners ran faster, they put more pressure on their knees. However, they took fewer strides to travel the same distance. As a result, the speediest runners put less stress on their knees overall.

“The optimal way of running produces the least cumulative load, and increasing running speed seems to lower the cumulative load at the knee joint,” study lead Jesper Petersen, a researcher at Aarthus University, confirmed to Health via email.

https://www.runnersworld.com/health-…t-knee-strain/
http://www.health.com/fitness/the-su…vent-knee-pain

And they are looking at people, who weigh what, 125-200 lbs? Horses are 1,000 lbs and their legs are the same size. So it may even be MORE important to limit the footstrikes.

[Palm_Beach]

@vineyridge

Years ago, I read that TBs have a higher proportion of a type of muscle fiber that can convert to either long twitch or short twitch with training.

I think that one of the issues is that a mile is not really that long of a race for slow twitch muscles to make a big difference. A flat race sprint is 5-6.5f, and a distance is a mile or more. I think if you look at qh v. tb v. arab maybe there is a case to be made for fast and slow twitch fibers, but within one breed, not so much.

Most people will say that the best horse is one with tactical speed - he can lay somewhat close to the pace and change gears and adjust to conditions quickly enough to stay out of trouble and still be there at the end. The horses that have one specific style - all speed, or pure closer, need the race to set up for them. So do speed horses have more fast twitch, and closers have more slow twitch? And what about the best type to have - the one with tactical speed?

[Palm_Beach]

@snaffle1987

I think pedigree has very little to do with running the Belmont or any 1.5 mile race. I think it has everything to do with current training practices which are the product of American races being shorter distances. I always find it kind of laughable when people make a big deal out of pedigrees in terms of running 1.5 miles. I think Pedigree has the least affect on the race.

This video should have you in hysterics!

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/triple-crown/tci-who-has-the-pedigree-to-prevail-in-the-test-of-a-champion/

[Lauruffian]

FWIW–though not directly related to horses, I think this is relevant. My sons both have a connective tissue disorder* (inherited from me, whee) that makes their joints hyper flexible. When they were first diagnosed they were both pulled off all PE, but after more thorough evaluation by an orthopedist familiar with the condition he strongly recommended they stay in PE and as normal as possible in physical activity as–here’s where it relates back to horses–studies have shown that all that physical activity helps strengthen bone, muscle, and joint development. I immediately thought of the study about horses that Laurierace referred to and mentioned it to the doc; he said it made sense in a parallel worlds sort of way.

*Condition is Ehlers-Danlos type 3…as long as the boys aren’t dislocating, the doc wants them still active

[Montanas_Girl]

I was judging a show earlier today and just got home about half an hour ago; I’m trying to skip through all my recorded pre-Belmont coverage and (hopefully) catch up to the live telecast before post time. Looks like Baffert has been having a good day so far.

Sidebar…Welcome back, @Lauruffian! I haven’t seen you posting much lately.

[TMares]

@Palm Beach

This video should have you in hysterics!

https://www.paulickreport.video.com/news/triple-crown/tci-who-has-the-pedigree-to-prevail-in-the-test-of-a-champion/[/url

thanks for sharing that, a great video.

[charismaryllis]

So why do Smith’s breeches say ‘wheels up’ ?