Literally nothing about the longer video makes it acceptable. If the horse is calm cantering into water off smaller banks and they can’t get it off the bigger bank without beating the shit out of it then they are not ready to be schooling at that level. He should be ashamed and so should everyone else present for standing by and allowing that; I would be furious if any pro did that to my horse, knight or not
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Guys if your horse is motivated through cross country by fear then you’ll never ever be able to trust it as a reliable jumping partner. You simply can’t beat a horse into loving cross country lmao
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THIS! I am no eventer but a dressage rider turned show jumper.
A horse that goes and does something out of fear is an unreliable partner. You can thank my trust issues to horses trained like this with random stops during courses were I was a little nervous about the element (liverpool) or a shadowy upright near some tree lined arenas.
A horse that likes the job and willingly does it is a happy partner. My heart mare LOVED jumping that she would DRAG me to fences (and often auto adjust for nice striding). She was so brave because she loved her job and often gave me so much confidence because she knew her job, and liked it enough to perform even if my calf got a little soft coming into a fence. She safely performed the job as long as I was balanced and mostly present.
Had a little tag on her martingale that said “i got u”. A happy horse who does a job out of ‘desire or fun’ or at least NOT out of fear is a trusting, healthy partnership. I would be livid if MT did that to my animal - trust once broken like that is VERY hard to rebuild. Horse was happily going down the smaller banks at the canter – they could have trotted with a lead horse into that larger element. F*ck a carrot would have had the horse pop down from a standstill.
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That was my reaction. The horse quite nicely jumped in and out of the water right before. Let him have a rest and a scratch and relax in the water. Go back later and do the low jump out of the water until it’s boring. I don’t see the point of drilling over and over, and then upping the stakes to the point where the whipping was necessary.
I see this in people trying to trailer load horses too. If you have a recalcitrant horse, the best solution is to take that horse all the way up to the point of refusal, and then drop the pressure immediately. Relax, let the horse think about the options. But make the actual stopping YOUR decision before the horse says NO. The horse learns to say YES.
Yes this training takes a bit more time. It takes feel. And yes I think even the best of us can experience immense pressure and get frustrated and go for the whip too soon or too hard.
But Todd is in a position of great respect and authority, and owes the horse world more than this display. I’m glad he apologized but I hope it’s not a common thread for him.
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I was JUST thinking about how this is similar to what people do for trailer loading!!! You can force a horse onto a trailer but you’re not really teaching them anything, so yes you get the result you want in that moment but the horse has not learned a reliable new behavior so you can’t trust them to load at all the next time you try it
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I was in the barn mucking and thinking about this thread, and had the same thoughts about the parallels with trailer loading.
I’m still baffled how there are adults my age or older who have never encountered trainers employing these types of methods. I don’t say that to normalize or minimize this situation at all, but once upon a time it was very common, especially with eventers and jumpers.
When I used to retrain and resell racehorses before it became cool again, I had multiple racing owners and trainers telling me they didn’t want their retired race horses going into the hands of eventers. While there were kind riders, eventing does not have a history of being a kind sport. There were a lot more rough ‘n ready methods employed back then, you know, like beating your horse down a drop. At the local bar after a big event, (some) eventers would brag about how many people fell off and how many horses went down on course, as if it was a badge of honor. We don’t think like that today.
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Nothing about this is ok! I can’t believe it has to be said. He repeatedly whipped a students horses legs because it wouldn’t go forward.
Sir Mark Todd surely has many other tools in his tool box. Sometimes, you have to admit defeat and go work on something else.
Choosing to strike a horse with a solid object over and over to get it to do what you want is actually the worst thing you can do when trying to train an animal, let alone the fact it’s flat out abusive.
I’m shocked by the replies. Shame on anyone who uses force or violence to train their horse like this!
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Or how about just don’t beat the horses? Seems pretty simple. Seems like not that big of an ask. Do you hit your horse? You seem very supportive of these methods.
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I am saddened by this video but also honestly surprised that he thinks this is a good training method.
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I understand there’s a world of difference between beating, abuse and what I see happening in this video.
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Gosh, I hope no-one ever surfaces with video of mistakes I’ve made. Was it cruel? I think so. Was it a one-of? Probably. The man has been in horses for over 30 years and I’ve never seen or heard anything of this sort about him before.
Clearly he knows he was wrong and stated so publicly. A internet shaming 2 years later does nothing but drum up the rock throwers.
I have said it before and will say it again:
Once is random. Twice is coincidence. Three times is a trend.
I think the pitchforks and torches can be put away. This does not seem like a chronic abuser FINALLY being outed.
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Sounds like it hit a nerve. There would be no thread here if it hadn’t been for a disturbing clip. And that’s what a forum is for, to discuss and check in with each other. ‘2 years later’ has no relevance here since the person who released the video clip is the rider herself and she made the decision when to release it. Glad she didn’t delete the clip instead. What then naturally follows is the kind of discussion that needs to follow as soon as there is evidence. This is not hearsay and rumor but actual footage.
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Lmao what is the difference please explain
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To be honest, what surprised me the most (and what always surprises me when I hear of something like this) that a trainer would do this in a clinic or lesson situation with a amateur student, on a horse which he doesn’t really have a personal investment in–it’s not like he’s going to be riding Slow Grey horse in Badminton tomorrow and needs to make sure the horse is sharp and responsive, or the pair will be at great risk and is using a strong approach to training with that in mind.
I can certainly understand asking the rider to give the horse a firm, decisive smack (or several) with the crop to wake up the horse several strides before the water, or getting upset with a rider who was putting the horse in a bad situation by constantly asking rather than telling to horse to go over an obstacle and “teaching” a horse to refuse. But I also don’t understand how using a switch (which I assume is more painful than a leather crop) like that is helpful as training. It doesn’t really teach the rider how to be effective and I don’t see how it’s really addressing the problem so it won’t happen again when there isn’t Mark Todd with a branch next time the horse goes down the bank.
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I don’t understand why they would go for the bigger bank down into the water since they felt the need to follow up with the stick just go down the smaller one. If it’s not smooth sailing to the easy one, what the hell makes them think the bigger one will be better??? Imho, have the small one nailed stop there for the day and end on a good note.
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Nope, no nerve was injured in the making of this post.
I think everyone can agree it was a really bad decision by MT. It was unfair to the horse, probably unfair to the rider, and sent a bad message to the other attendees.
I completely agree that having a productive conversation is the heart of these forums. What I don’t agree with (and you can do with that whatever you wish) is the “death by internet” for an isolated incident that he seems to regret and has apologized for.
I don’t know the guy. I’m not a fan-girl type in the least. But a single mistake with an honest apology is just that: a mistake with an honest apology. Without any other data points indicating anything otherwise, I don’t see the need to restate the obvious.
Now, if more incidents surface? Different story.
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If more incidents surface the story will doubtlessly get more layered (‘different’) - but in the meantime one clip also deserves to be discussed for what it is: footage of abuse.
“Death by internet?” Not sure that anyone is dying here, either in this discussion nor any other that’s currently out there. Discussed? Yes. Dying? Hardly.
Death by internet would be a slew of unfounded accusations: “He always does this!” “He has never trained differently” “he should never train horses again!” without corresponding evidence. All I am hearing is “This, here, is unacceptable.” And with that I stand.
Almost certainly he will be just fine after this, remain a knighted Sir, and stay as busy as ever.
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I agree, it’s not fair to judge anyone by his worst moment, and Mark Todd has had many fine moments. He’s always been a rider I admired, even though I’m well aware his long career stretches back to when unsavory and rough riding was more the norm than not. I don’t think this board has any unthinking fangirls, it’s more that we’re just surprised by the recent show of bad judgement as well as bad training.
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I can envisage exactly the scenario where this might occur. I’ve been to quite a few group clinics. I am NOT EXCUSING IT AT ALL, and it certainly was poor judgement on his part. I’m sincerely hoping it is a one-off.
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If you watch the longer video posted by @GoneAway, it seems to me he felt he was going to have to force this horse to do something since he approached the water obstacle stripping the branch. Had something already happened earlier in the clinic to make him think force was going to be needed?
It’s also a shame the rider, Chloe, had been too intimidated to send the video to the FEI. There must be a reason she held on to it for two years and decided to post it now. Maybe it took her that long to find her courage, similar to her horse.
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