Fair enough. I was tired and irritated last night, and should not have posted anything. I apologize for my remarks.
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âThe FEI is disappointed and alarmed by the images in the video,â a spokesman said.
âThis is not acceptable behaviour and it goes against everything we stand for and the values we encourage and expect from all horsemen and horsewomen.
âEvery individual in the equestrian community has a responsibility and a duty to safeguard and protect the horses in their care and embrace a zero-tolerance attitude when it comes to any form of equine abuse and mistreatment. Any violation of that important responsibility cannot be overlooked or condoned, and the FEI will investigate whenever sporting and training methods are in clear disregard of the health and welfare of our most valued partner, the horse.
âThe foundations of our sport rest on our partnership with the horse, and it is up to all equestrians to uphold and respect this core principle in the pursuit of sport and leisure riding.â
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Me too. I had a trainer put an experienced rider on my horse and then use a lunge whip to get him to jump over a ditch. There was blood (noticed later hosing him off). I didnât stop it.
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Because as students, children, and women, we have been taught not to trust ourselves because our âsuperiorsâ or those with âgreatâ experience always know better. Our respect for teachers, clergy, and others in positions of authority, but those especially in position of endowing knowledge, is ingrained from day one. We are taught to accept instead of to question. When we do get up the courage to question we are shot down and left with self-doubt.
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Honestly, what youâve said here about toys/prey drive is inexperienced dog people say about treats. And I say this for general information, not to pick on you personally. You were just the one to say it.
FWIW People who teach horses to jump with force-free methods use stations and targets.
As for bucking, Iâd GLADLY trade a world in which horses buck and explode violently from pain, terror, and frustration for one in which there are a few more âwheeâ bucks. It would be a much safer world if horses knew âNoâ was an option.
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I think one of the biggest problems is that the negative reinforcement (pressure and release) methods that are used by most trainers are what is exclusively used and taught by most horse trainers. When a horse doesnât respond, the pressure can escalate to what we see in the video (though to be clear, I am not opposed to pressure and release training when done properly, and I would really not call that appropriate pressure and release training)
Anyways, pressure/release and force based escalation is what we know and how we are taught. There are a lot less trainers using positive reinforcement. We only know what we know. And when we are taught the only way to get a horse to do something is by using force/pressure, we a lot of times didnât/donât know any better. And a lot of pro trainers are really disparaging about positive reinforcement training for some reason so many people really and truly believe you cant train a horse without forceful methods.
Fortunately with the internet, there are a lot more available resources for learning other methods. But I have personally learned the most (in general) about horse training with hands on methods. For me, thatâs meant learning how to train a behavior using pressure and release and adapting it to positive reinforcement if thatâs how I want to train it.
So in short, if you arenât a self-starter who does a lot of research on their own time it would be hard to learn how to apply positive reinforcement in the horse world where the overwhelming majority of trainers are not using positive reinforcement.
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Letâs hope this is the âMeTooâ movement of horse training.
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We all are guilty of not speaking up at one time or another in our lives when we see something very wrong. Think George Floyd as an extreme example. Sometimes we become so intimidated by fear of ridicule or peer pressure we simply freeze and regret our inaction for a long, long time.
Iâm glad Chloe finally found her courage after two years to post the video. At least a light is being shown on this type of abuse now.
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Gardenie, that it is an amazing post - very insightful and profound. COTH should feature it as an article or blog entry.
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Thanks. I love eventing. I love horses. And Iâm so fortunate to have seen horsemanship methods continue to improve over the years. There is always something to learn. âThe good old days werenât always good and tomorrow ainât as bad as it seems.â Billy Joel
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One thing that also stood out to me on the video is that it wasnât just the horse that didnât want to go off the drop into water.
The rider didnât want to do it,either. Not only was the rider was doing almost nothing that needed to be done, but to me it seemed that the rider was genuinely afraid that the horse would, in fact, go. Probably afraid of how the horse might launch, if she could ride it, and what would happen on the landing. With good reason, IMO.
Rider & horse were both green to the problem. This was what really needed to be addressed by a teacher/instructor/trainer.
So, Iâm seeing a rider who wasnât comfortable riding down-drops, nervous about surviving it. (I remember this being terrifying when I first tried it. From way up on the horse it looked like going off the high-dive for the first time.) On a horse who also doesnât seem to know much about drops â horse also wondering about survival. The rider probably feeling the horseâs uncertainty in addition to her own. Adding to her fear that she doesnât feel she has the experience or the seat to handle whatever happens. And feeling that there is a broad range of what could happen.
So, a situation where much basic skill and confidence-building was needed all around. Maybe better to learn on a more experienced horse, and the horse learning with a more confident rider. Not a small task to do properly, and not really the right time or place with other riders waiting.
But the clinician is anxious to get this done RIGHT NOW (my interpretation) and from experience no doubt knows that he can escalate and force both rider and horse down the drop, and everyone will live. So get the tree branch and do it. Quickly - escalate hard & fast, get it done.
Onlookers thinking that if MT does it, it must be ok. Or have no idea just what to say in this moment, to MT of all people. However uneasy they felt.
It was hard for everyone to wave off and find a different path forward. The clinician, the rider, the onlookers. The clinician could not concede that this needs to be deferred to another time when no one else is waiting. We donât get to complete every challenge today. Of the others, no one was prepared, or even knew how, to stand up to an instructor of such stature.
One of the things we most need to prepare for in life is sometimes having to abruptly detour from the plan. Suddenly break the linear focus of the moment and defer an outcome in which we are invested. This is actually a high-pressure decision, because in that moment we tend to have tunnel-vision on the intended outcome. Thatâs being human.
One of the most valuable life lessons I was ever taught is that people generally are not able to realize and decide on sudden detours when under pressure, in the moment â unless they have earlier, consciously, prepared themselves for such a moment. Prepared thoughtfully at a time when there is no pressure. Either through formal training, or through personal time spent informally thinking about possible future situations. We will not automatically respond as we will later wish we had without advance preparation for such situations.
Itâs a personal study, as it were. Asking ourselves in quiet moments âwhat kind of person do I want to be in this situation, or that situation?â What will I do, what will I say, if I see, for instance: Iâm in a parking lot loading groceries and notice an incident of flagrant child abuse by a frustrated parent â or, see an obviously lost and panicky dog trying to cross a busy road â or, see a stranger-visitor at my workplace poking at a co-workerâs computer when the co-worker isnât present â or, see a trainer or rider going overboard with physical pressure on a horse â etc.
Itâs been pointed out that the flaw in the instruction âIf you see something, say somethingâ is that it doesnât include the information most needed. Say what? To who? People need that information in order to act.
And they need to prepare for the possibility ahead of time, through thoughtful introspection at a time when the pressure it not on.
People need some standard words & phrases ready to go. And tips on a tone of voice and even body language to use them. And they also need some thoughts on what to say as follow-up, based on the response.
âOh hey, thatâs looking like a little much I think, could we do this another way and get better results?â Or âHey I know that is really frustrating, but it looks like things are going a little overboard, you know? What else have you tried? Because I really think itâs time to try something else.â
Or even just âHey! No no, we donât do that here.â
Or âHey! Thatâs not ok. I know thatâs frustrating, but letâs address it a better way.â
Something that is comfortable for the personality of the person who is preparing to say it, at some future moment.
We need suggestions. If I see [fill in blank] , what words do I say, how do I say them, and to who?
And then what do I do next if the person ignores me, or if they snap angrily at me to mind my own business, or if they stop the abuse and say âok, what should I be doing?â
When am I the one to speak up, and when do I run for a higher authority to act instead? And what if the higher authority doesnât act and the abuse is continuing?
We all need help to prepare for these situations. And then hope we never need to use it! 
But the more we are around horses and horse people, the more likely that probably, someday, we will need to know how to intervene in a deteriorating horse-handling situation.
And even how to respond if someone says to us âhey donât do thatâ.
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Years ago we did a number of pack trips with @OnAMission. We all worked our asses off to do it, and occasionally stuffed a recalcitrant 7th? 9th? Oh get IN THERE horse into the last spot on their huge stock trailer 
if youâve been packing horses for 20 youâve been looking for loose stock for 10. Itâs a great joke among those of us willing to step out into the great outdoors. Weâd ride and laugh and have the time of our livesâŠand we came up with âdo you mind if I noticeâ a concern, a question, an Iâm not sure. That preface made it plain your intent.
And thatâs between just us girls, two women with 20+ years of trust and horses and life together between us. The men were fine, they didnât notice **** lol.
Normal, non tightly bound peeps? I dunno. I donât know if itâs realistic. Weâll see where this all goes, I think I read he lost his training license.
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No worries, and thanks! Hope you had a better day. Iâm also chronically sleep deprived at the moment. Not a great place to be. 
If I could choose a super power at this point in my life it would be: sleeping soundly for 6-8 hours. 
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I donât think his reaction was an appropriate response. At the same time it doesnât appear to be severe abuse. Trainers sometimes make mistakes or do things that in hindsight probably wasnât a good idea.
I had a horse severely beaten to go through water by his previous owner. He would see a puddle and shudder. I tried tying him during our lunch break near a creek and he danced and fussed the entire time because mentally he was distraught. He had severe ptsd. Iâm certain they didnât try to flag him into the water- Iâm sure they whipped him repeatedly - far worse then whatâs in that video. I tried asking him to go through puddles- he would rather smash through a tree or whatever brush is next to it. He did get better - if following another horse and I even managed to get him into that scary creek eventually. He actually liked the water once he was in it. It was just the fear of getting beaten and approaching the water that was problematic.
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This was regrettable and unfortunate. A display of poor horsemanship. But it wasnât abuse. It you think it was then lucky you that you havenât seen real abuse up close and personal. If you say it was then you are doing a real disservice to horses that have truly been abused by minimizing their experience with your hyperbolic word choices. The cancel mob always exaggerates.
I regularly see horses in eventing warm-up rings that will suffer more âabuseâ by the time the day is over from bad riding and worse equipment choices than what I saw in the few seconds here. And that ends up being consistent on-going abuse that has terrible long term affects. I donât see the branch being anywhere near as brutal as a dressage whip and it seemed to be breaking upânot a very effective tool. I didnât see real fear here either. Real fear would not have resulted in a pop into the water a couple canter strides then trotting out. Fear equal flight for horses.
Iâve been involved in eventing now for over 40 years and I have some bad news. The whole âoh you canât train a horse to jump with pain and fearâit will never truly be effectiveâ trope is false. People do things like this precisely because it works. Full stop. In fact Iâve seen it be quite effective with no lasting problems. Are there better ways? Of course, they take longer.
I donât and never have trained my horses this way nor do I condone it, but if you were to ask me what kind of situation would this type of âtrainingâ be effectiveâno question itâs dropping into water. Itâs on a horse that is capable to the level, knows the job, but just quits as if there is a mental block or a âpony-tune.â There is usually a less than effective rider in the mix.
Itâs pressure and release on steroids and it works. The advantages of it are that the horse tends to understand that it isnât the rider creating the chaos and drama, so it doesnât necessarily create trust issues. It also is effective because the ground person can keep the horseâs feet moving which goes a long way in preventing the horse from getting stuck or frozen at the top of the drop. With one that is highly resistant to dropping in water often times if you can just get them through the process a few times successfully it can be enough to break the cycle.
A caveat here is that it wonât work for every horse and it does come with risk, but people like Mark Todd can learn more about a horse in a 10 minute warm up than most of us learn in a year. But stop fooling yourself that it doesnât work.
I despise cancel culture. And Iâm sick that this manâs life work over the course of a half a century is being wholly judge by a few seconds on a video clip. Unless the second coming is on COTH none of us here donât have 15 seconds of behavior in our past that could destroy us if it had been caught on video. The utter lack of grace in our communities is just disgusting. And yes, some of you here who early in the thread posted your same opinions over and over constantly bringing the thread back to the top until it had a life of its own?âŠYeah, youâre complicit.
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âI donât see MT being emotional or over the top. I see him addressing a horse who has been taught that forward is optional (taught that by his rider)â.
Then he should have whipped the rider.
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Agree. Some of these posters either havenât been around many trainers or they wear rose colored glasses.
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Hereâs Rosie Napravnik doing an OTTBâs first cross country school
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Have you ever tried positive reinforcement training with a horse? Because if you had youd know that itâs actually so, so much faster than force based methods. The reason why people use force is because itâs easier for the human and allows you to operate based off emotions but it is NOT effective and it is definitely not faster.
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I guarantee that mark Todd will be just fine in terms of making money and continuing his career, just like the many abusive trainers that have been called out recently and are still selling horses, holding clinics, and making money.
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