Op Piece - Banning Whips in Competition

[Texarkana]

@RAyers

Do you honestly believe that this rule change will miraculously change how we train?!

This is a really good point about all the “social license” based rule changes we propose. Maybe the public won’t see them in competition (as if the public is truly watching competitions), but they aren’t going to help horses behind closed doors.

For example, would the Heath Ryan situation been avoided if whips were banned in competition? Unlikely. The whip itself wasn’t the whole problem; it was a trainer locked in a battle of wills with a shut down horse.

Maybe the idea of carrying a stick would become abhorrent after years of bans… but even natural horsemanship employs aids to be an extension of the body. Not to hit a horse, but humans are going to human. I have a hard time believing no one will ever grab a whip again even years after they are theoretically banned.

[Blugal]

What I read from a lot of responses is a lot of denial. Yes of course people can and will use whips inappropriately at home; that’s the Heath Ryan and Charlotte Dujardin problem.

Has this discussion or any of (g) your own observations and learning led (g) you to question our use of whips and when and how they are appropriate? I was certainly brought up with some old school training ideas and used the whip inappropriately. I’ve seen supposed experts, trained by experts, abusively beat horses (and overuse the bit, spurs, and other “training” tools). Now that we know better, we can strive to do, and be, better.

Part of the problem is obviously rule enforcement; it’s also how the rules are written - I believe any abuse of horse (as currently defined) should result in elimination. Otherwise the rules are just lip service and we don’t care about abusing the horses for competitive ends.

[RAyers]

And to me, that is the crux. Rule enforcement. Adding another rule doesn’t make things better.

I have already thought of a couple of ways to get around “no whip.” Because that is the nature of my brain. And each method is absolutely worse for the horse and their welfare. We can always go back to electric spurs or “machine training” methods on the track.

These are the potential unintended consequences of such a rule in a sport where high performing horses are worth a handsome sum.

[DogWithBigEars]

@Blugal

I believe any abuse of horse (as currently defined) should result in elimination. Otherwise the rules are just lip service and we don’t care about abusing the horses for competitive ends.

This is an excellent point. Those who were given a yellow card for pressing a tired horse or excessive use of the whip still get to finish on a number. They don’t even have an asterisk next to their result.

At the Kentucky 5* a US based rider received a yellow card. Still completed, and never even publicly commented on the yellow card. No “I should have done better by my horse” on social media. Several weeks later, was posting xc photos of the horse she abused on course. Look at me! Look at my horse!

An automatic elimination just might help fix the problem.

[FitToBeTied]

In pondering this, if whips are bad aren’t spurs as well?

It really depends on the horse. I have had several OTTB’s. They have all had varying reactions to the use of a whip at all. One pretty much much ignored but the current one really hates it. So I don’t carry one now. It should really be about using the right tool at the right time appropriately.

[cmdrcltr]

I want to thank you SO much for this post. I have a new pony who is 4, quite green, and very laid back. It’s been a number of years since I’ve had one this green, although in my twenties I worked on a Morgan farm and started youngsters. Since he has only been with me a month, I have been working a lot on the ground, building trust and getting responses to light communication before we have our short ride sessions. Under saddle, he is still figuring out forward and doesn’t clearly understand leg. Sometimes he makes the decision to veer to the inside of the direction we are going, and I’ve been struggling to fix that without a lot of rein aid. After reading your post, I rode yesterday with a short bat, and when he started to veer in, I just gave a couple of light taps on his shoulder to remind him to stay straight. It worked a charm! And in my book it’s far better than too much misunderstood inside leg (at the moment) and hauling on the outside rein. So again, thank you!

[quarab]

@Marigold

If we do not provide information about what we do and why we do it, it is only reasonable that people will draw their own conclusions.

I remember getting a new whip in the mail (a custom Arias). I took it out to admire it and my non horsey roommate was pretty shocked I “had a whip” (I obviously have multiple). I explained that sometime I needed something that wasn’t my leg that unequivocally meant “go” whereas my leg can sometimes mean different things or get muddled to my baby horse. I then popped my leg about as hard as I would tap my mare’s butt said “see no pain just a tap” and she asked if I could tap her leg about that hard which I did. She was honestly so shocked that it was “just that”.

Obviously some people are out there using whips incorrectly and beating their horse but they’ll do so with or without a whip. I think I’m a pretty average whip user and I’ve changed at least one person’s understanding of whips entirely in a 2 minute conversation.

[albytb]

Honestly, I do think it can be used in an ethical way. Literally I’ll just lay it on their side/shoulder if I want to communicate forward or pressure in a certain manner.

As for spurs… not for me. Unless you have expert control over your leg I feel like there’s too much room for error or confusion.

[Texarkana]

@quarab

I think I’m a pretty average whip user and I’ve changed at least one person’s understanding of whips entirely in a 2 minute conversation.

This is exactly why I feel like optics/social license shouldn’t be the primary motivation.

We can’t make sweeping changes every time the masses get their panties in a wad over something they don’t understand.

Things the general public has deemed “cruel”
at different points: breeding, driving, keeping horses outside, keeping horses inside, etc.

There are times when education is necessary over just giving into optics. Otherwise horses would cease to exist.

I fully support strict, enforceable whip rules, but outright banning them is not automatically in the best interest of the horse.

[poltroon]

People are quick to want to make rules. But maybe the better way is to lead by example. Simply say, “Hey, I am choosing to not carry a whip, this is why, and I encourage everyone to consider it as an option.” Then see how it works out for people.

I do think there’s value in thinking about the whip that you carry also. For dressage, I like a long whip that can reach behind my leg. For jumping, I found a crop that is more noisy than sharp that I think makes more sense than a short, stiff crop. I spent a lot of time testing different ones on myself to ensure I knew exactly what the horse would feel.

[kaya842]

I agree with the comments some have made that if we did away with whips why would spurs be spared? Both are artificial aids that can be abused (not that the other aids can’t also be abused - more so those 2 have an existing negative connotation with the general public IME). I’ve known several horses that weren’t able to be ridden with one or the other but needed more than a leg aid to be suitable for their rider (think beginner ponies for small children). One pony was so spur phobic he would bolt mindlessly. Should he have not had a job doing the beginner lessons simply because doing so required the rider to carry a crop? He was not an athletic or large horse, beginner lessons suited his abilities and lifestyle best.

For the “do your schooling at home” argument - is there never a time when a well schooled pair may find themselves in a little trouble and needing a touch more go to get out of a sticky (dangerous) spot? Maybe something catches the horse’s eye (or even the rider’s) or they get bogged down in crappy footing. I don’t know but it seems reasonable to me to carry it ICE as a “go forward now” (or die) type deal. There’s always a lot of talk and thought on how to make the sport safer, and I don’t know if banning whips would be helping the cause.

[fivestrideline]

@quarab

I then popped my leg about as hard as I would tap my mare’s butt said “see no pain just a tap” and she asked if I could tap her leg about that hard which I did. She was honestly so shocked that it was “just that”.

As kids, we used to smack the crap out of each other with various sticks/whips/crops. Bare skin. It was like a game, one with no real objective.

We really had to hit HARD with the “bat” - the short jumping whips with the flat leather end - to make a mark, let alone hurt. A dressage whip had more bite, but you really had to haul off to make it hurt for more than a second. The racing whips could certainly pack a punch, but you had to overhand them straight on. Mostly, it’s noise - the whips could sting, but the noise was scarier. Obviously you can cause some damage beating someone repeatedly with any of these, but it takes more than a single smack (especially if the purpose of the smack is known).

You know what DID hurt? Lunge whips. Get caught on the end of one of those cracked at your legs and OUCH you’d charge at the wielder. The other whip that really hurt was the Parelli carrot stick - that string could get GOING, and the stick itself is long and heavy enough to hurt good.

TLDR: an underhanded smack or two on the shoulder or behind the leg with a jumping stick, applied in a way that makes sense to the horse and has been installed (go forward, move over, etc) is not a problem to me. Including in competition. A tap or tickle behind the leg or on a haunch with a dressage whip? Driving whips tapped as directional signals? Same deal. Where whips can be used in such a way as to cause damage is in the lunge ring, behind the barn, and when used repeatedly, usually as punishment, in a way the horse does not understand. None of these are really addressed by banning whips in competition.

[Texarkana]

The padded racing whips they use almost exclusively in racing anymore feel like nothing when you are hit by them. It’s more of a visual/sound aid than anything; it’s like getting hit with a pool noodle. Yet here were are suspending jockeys for one extra swat in a big race and proposing that racing should go whipless when you already have basically no aids.

It is what it is.

[Marigold]

So many good posts on this thread.

@EventerAJ

I ride A LOT of young horses, from starting under saddle to starting over fences and beyond. I almost never ride a young horse without a crop and a neckstrap. GO FORWARD is the name of the game. Starting babies, they don’t always understand what “leg” means. They get wiggly. They get stuck. They pop their shoulders. Tapping a crop on the shoulder is much more instinctively understood than “put your leg on.” I start and gallop a lot of 2yo racehorses too, and you learn quickly that a brisk road trot past a scary/spooky place is much safer than risking a stop/spin/bolt.

I’m actively teaching them what “leg on” means, but that most always involves some light taps on the shoulder (and less often, behind leg) when needed. It’s absolutely not a punishment or abusive; it’s just to get the feet moving on a baby horse that genuinely doesn’t know what to do. They all know voice commands, but they get confused, distracted, lost, stuck, and tap-tap with a cluck/kiss gets them going (& praise).

A year or two later, those horses are going to their first xc schools, shows, and new places. They’re green. They will be distracted, looking, and occasionally “stuck.” I still have my crop with me, and tap-tap on the shoulder just like we did at home (in the very beginning) to reinforce my leg. It prevents a stop on course, keeps the feet moving, and – for horses who stop, hesitate, plant and BLOW UP-- keeping moving is often a safer course of action. All these things can happen at a horse’s first competitions, so I want the option to have it at horse trials and not just at home.

I carry a crop but basically never tap/hit an educated horse. I may use it for straightness-- wave it in their vision on the outside shoulder of a corner, for example-- but by a time a horse is solid at the level they understand leg = forward and know their job. Those horses could probably get away with no whip.

But I would never give up the option to carry my stick on a young/green horse, it’s part of safety.

This this this

@RAyers

We already have whip rules. And how many times have they been enforced? Does it change behavior? Let’s start there before creating new rules.

This rule would literally be a way to hide from the public how and why whips are used.

And this.

@kaya842

For the “do your schooling at home” argument - is there never a time when a well schooled pair may find themselves in a little trouble and needing a touch more go to get out of a sticky (dangerous) spot? Maybe something catches the horse’s eye (or even the rider’s) or they get bogged down in crappy footing. I don’t know but it seems reasonable to me to carry it ICE as a “go forward now” (or die) type deal.

And this.

@FitToBeTied

It should really be about using the right tool at the right time appropriately.

And this.

We cannot substitute for good judgement with rules. Horses and riders are not AI robots. There must be room to adapt.

@Texarkana

This is exactly why I feel like optics/social license shouldn’t be the primary motivation.

We can’t make sweeping changes every time the masses get their panties in a wad over something they don’t understand.

Things the general public has deemed “cruel”
at different points: breeding, driving, keeping horses outside, keeping horses inside, etc.

There are times when education is necessary over just giving into optics. Otherwise horses would cease to exist.

I fully support strict, enforceable whip rules, but outright banning them is not automatically in the best interest of the horse.

Exactly this. And to be clear, I’m not using “uneducated” as an insult. I love that horse sports are reaching more people, and I love that those people take an interest, and I think it could be a real opportunity for the sport to reach new audiences. The internet has also led me to discover cool and interesting things I knew nothing about over the years. But by definition if you find out about horse sports that way instead of your parents signing you up for lessons with an instructor as a 5 year old, that kind of exposure comes with much less explanation and information than it would via a teacher. It’s that gap that we need to address to help newcomers understand and enjoy.

[EventerAJ]

You’re most welcome, I’m glad it helped you!

[MNEventer]

@DogWithBigEars

This is an excellent point. Those who were given a yellow card for pressing a tired horse or excessive use of the whip still get to finish on a number. They don’t even have an asterisk next to their result.

At the Kentucky 5* a US based rider received a yellow card. Still completed, and never even publicly commented on the yellow card. No “I should have done better by my horse” on social media. Several weeks later, was posting xc photos of the horse she abused on course. Look at me! Look at my horse!

An automatic elimination just might help fix the problem.

Totally agree. It’s very disturbing to see top level riders using the whip or spur in a way that would get anyone on a lower level course eliminated and/or suspended, but the UL rider only gets a warning or a yellow card. It gives the impression that some rules are optional if you’re famous/connected enough. If it’s not acceptable for someone going around their first 1*, it shouldn’t be ok for someone going around their 20th 5*.

For people saying that the optics to the “outside world” don’t matter, I will again bring up the greyhound racing ban in Florida in 2018 as a cautionary tale. Objectively, the facts were on the side of the pro-racing faction. It didn’t matter that 99% of dogs were adopted into loving homes after their racing careers were over, people still remembered the horrific stories of dogs being killed once they were no longer profitable. It didn’t matter that kennels and tracks had to pass random inspections from state officials. One of the leaders of an organization that was pushing for the ban was quoted as saying the number of active greyhound racers in the state was 10 times higher than the reality. The facts just did not matter. Greyhound racing had a Bad Reputation and was banned by the voters of Florida. Once a sport has a Bad Reputation, it is very hard to change that.

[RAyers]

While I agree with your sentiment about optics, I can tell you that making rules and attempts to change FACTS to address optics is even worse. Look at the scientific and medical community. That is all we are dealing with in today’s idiotic administrative state. They want us to change by changing the rules, however the FACTS don’t change and thus the optics are only reflective of people unwilling to change their minds. At some point, no matter the rules used to appease the public, the REALITY bites us back in the ass.

Matt Brown’s idea is honorable but not supported by reality.

[MNEventer]

What are the facts that Matt is trying to change? He’s stating his opinion and a suggestion for a rule change, but I don’t see him arguing over any facts.

[RAyers]

That is my point. I believe rules should be instituted based on data and consideration.

[hey101]

@Texarkana

The padded racing whips they use almost exclusively in racing anymore feel like nothing when you are hit by them. It’s more of a visual/sound aid than anything; it’s like getting hit with a pool noodle. Yet here were are suspending jockeys for one extra swat in a big race and proposing that racing should go whipless when you already have basically no aids.

I have a question and two comments. My question is, I only really watch the Triple Crown races anymore, but it seems to me, especially in the last year or two watching jockeys come down the homestretch they’re not hitting horses. They’re actually waving the whip alongside the horse?

My first comment is, I’ve never felt comfortable taking a whip and whacking a horse with it when I’m on it. I do carry a whip suitable for whatever discipline (long dressage, short jumpers) I’m doing, but I tend to hit it off my own boot first before I would hit the horse. And if I do touch the horse it’s a gentle reminder

My second comment is related to horses on the ground, have had more than a few come in with no ground manners absolutely no discipline would run over top of you dangerous and you better believe I’ll have CTJ discussion on who is alpha and I’m armed. MOST of the time it takes one discussion. Sometimes two. But horse and I come to agreement on who is in charge and then horse is calm and happy and owner is amazed.

Can’t speak to the months down the road when horse goes home and dominant personality resurfaces