OTTB shopping - high or low race mileage? And general track record questions

[dynamite0319]

I’ve had two thoroughbreds. One wasn’t really bred to run (JC Queen’s Black Tie) and I bought him as a long yearling that was barely halter trained. The second I bought in January when he turned 3 (My Man Zapper).
I started QBT myself and showed him in the hunters until he was 11. I leased then sold him to a kid at my barn. He had a lot of dumb mishaps (got kicked, got puncture wounds, etc.) that caused lameness when I had him, but was structurally sound as a show hunter from 6yo to 11yo. He’s 16 now and was recently diagnosed with a chronic soft tissue degeneration that is career limiting. I’m not totally sure if it’s from his job or from genetics or both.

MMZ ran twice in the fall as a two year old and was last or second to last. He is the calmest and sweetest non-QH I’ve ever sat on. However he has Issues. I figured out in 2020/2021 that he’s a non-recumbent sleeper (not narcoleptic) and going down the path of trying to find a vet to help me with this non-recumbent sleeping issue led me to the vet who is (very successfully) treating him now. He was never Lame, but he was kind of lame. He didn’t step under himself with his right hind. Under saddle he always gets both leads, has a sticky lead change both directions, always jumps the jump, has never bucked and is the only horse I have that I’d consider letting a beginner ride. I foxhunted him from 2018 to now very successfully. When his current treating vet went over his body on her first exam she found a very old, most likely from when he was a foal, pelvic fracture. We are treating that and he now steps under himself with the right hind and lead changes are much smoother. Still non-recumbent sleeping, but that is always very difficult to “fix”.

My point in all this is that neither horse ran much and both have Problems. I grew up riding off-track quarter horses and they were much sounder than these TBs have been. I also have a warmblood mare that I’ve owned since she was 3 months old (11yo now) and she has been very sound and shows in the hunters.

I agree with @Texarkana about checking their Equibase profiles, but actually knowing the racing connections is definitely the best way to get a sound horse. It’s just not easy to make those connections if you aren’t in the racing world.

[Cowboy_Girl]

Personally I prefer the older warrior type OTTB vs the younger/trained/lightly raced types. But its a trade off - a proven sound, often older (ready for serious work) and cheaper prospect but with an established incorrect (for sport horses) muscle memory with some head issues.
Older ones are, especially when they are slightly over at the knee, will be sound with clean legs. They survived and kept racing because they are fundamentally bio-mechanically sound and not crazy. They are usually in the 7-9 year old range and are priced very low/sometimes free if you have a connection. If they move well both directions on a lunge line or in a round pen, I don’t bother with a PPE, just get the brand inspection done and get them home.
This where the cons show up - maybe poor ground manners, or missing basics like tying quietly or separation anxiety. Under saddle they tend to be flat and stiff in the back, they can balance beautifully at all gaits on a 50M circle but it will take 6 months to get that on a 20M circle. All can be fixed but it will take time and a lot of side hill work. So no time table or sanctioned showing goals for a while. But its my favorite kind of challenge!

[betonbill]

As far as looking, what about the Retired Racehorse group? Their show is coming up in October and there are literally hundreds of horses to choose from. Plus they should all be well started and sound if they are competing. Haven’t checked with them for several years, but a lot of the trainers have/had blogs regarding their progress. I realize that the prices for these horses have soared in recent years, but hey, not all of them wind up in the top tier at the show but might be completely satisfactory for a person with smaller ambitions.

[Bogie]

@Texarkana

a horse who is so sensitive that he mentally can’t handle the game. Some horses become so stressed out all the time that they can’t train or race.

My last OTTB was pretty successful on the track. Probably would have won a lot more if he hadn’t lost the races on the way to the starting gate. He got way too worked up. His second career was as my hunt horse. He finally learned to stand quietly until the hounds were cast, then a bets were off and I always felt like we were in the starting gate.

[chestnutmarebeware]

My sample size of TBs taken directly off the tracks (all were free btw-what happened to finding really nice horses at no cost? ) is three, so take this with a grain of salt.

My gelding raced for two years at Mountaineer before severely bowing a tendon. I worked with his owner, who offered him to me with the understanding that he would need at least six months on grass pasture to heal (which he did!). He went on to jump with me and then event with his permanent free lease owner when he showed that he really wanted to be a girl’s only horse.

My two mares were raced for three years each, and ran many races. Both were Storm Cat granddaughters and were very well bred and successful runners. Bo even raced in the Maryland Million distaff and came in third and was only offered to me after sustaining an ankle injury that also needed no treatment except turnout. Cat raced on turf and wasn’t winning enough to keep her over the winter to come back as a 5-year-old.

None of the three had any subsequent lameness issues. I did euthanize Cat at age 15 after cellulitis damaged her circulation and she was in pain that he couldn’t control, even as a pasture puff. But Bo is sound in retirement at age 21 (due to my work schedule).

[NancyM]

Well… it depends, doesn’t it? I’ve had “both”. IMO, if a horse is in race training, and does not race, there is a reason why. And that reason is often that there is a problem with soundness. It may be a short term problem, or a problem that is difficult to diagnose, or a problem that isn’t going to effect him in a riding/show horse career. But if he’s gone through all the training, gate schooling and works, and is sound, he will be entered somewhere that the trainer thinks he’s got a chance of success. It may be bottoms maiden claiming. On the other hand, a horse who has a longer career has been sound, but has more chance for wear and tear, or a bad step or stumble at speed, and thus an injury. The injury may or may not heal fully in time. So it’s a crap shoot, really. Which is fine, as long as a buyer is aware of this, and the price reflects the chance of failure.
I know that some people feel they HAVE to purchase from a “placement agency” or middle man, rather than directly from a race trainer/owner. I’ve never done that, but different strokes for different folks. I prefer to talk directly to the race connections, the trainer, the groom, the exercise rider, to ask about the horse. Most of the horses I’ve bought off the track have been horses that I have watched for several months or years in race training, and coveted. Sometimes, a pedigree local to me encourages me, sometimes it is just the way the horse moves, his natural athleticism which catches my eye. It worked well for me over the years.

The bonus to purchasing an OTTB is that he has had the bone building and joint surface development that early training gives a horse, to make him a sound horse in the long run, if he has avoided injury during the process. No other breed of horse is able to withstand the early training that a TB can, that’s what 400 years of selective breeding for soundness and performance gives you. Racing itself is the selection process, not just someone’s opinion. The TB has that early development of both muscle and coordination that is lacking in other breeds, which allows him a “good chance” or escaping injury in early training, and race training, that other breeds are not capable of doing. The TB is my breed of choice for sport competition.

[StormyDay]

I prefer the horses who have raced a lot and retired due to age. Mostly because in my experience I’ve found these horses to be extremely sane. They have been there, done that, traveled all over the country. Bonus points for if the horse wasn’t exactly stellar at the job; just good enough to win money but never so good that they were thinking it was the next triple crown winner. Why? Because that tells me the horse is easy to get along with. They won’t keep racing a difficult horse unless it wins all the time. So if it sometimes finishes mid pack, gets a lot of seconds, etc, that’s good sign to me. That means the horse is the barn favorite. They don’t retire it because it’s reliable on the ground and in the saddle.

On the other hand, I avoid like the plague the horse who was winning and then retired. That’s a huge red flag to me, because that means that either the injury the horse got was so substantial that they didn’t try to rehab to race again, or that horse is such a PITA that they said ‘screw it, retire him’. (Side note; I have one of these horses. I was young and dumb and didn’t know better. He was a complete psycho until he turned 10. He almost killed both of us once by rearing and backing up to and almost over a cliff. When he turned 10 a switch flipped in his brain and he became a normal horse. He now teaches beginner riding lessons.)

[Tha_Ridge]

@StormyDay

On the other hand, I avoid like the plague the horse who was winning and then retired.

Now, I have to disagree with this—or at least add an asterisk. Some winning horses, particularly at lower-level tracks, retire because they’ve run out of conditions to race in and simply will not be competitive with a bump up in class. Good trainers and connections will often retire them at this point. This is why it’s very important to know how to read a chart.

[Texarkana]

@Tha_Ridge

@StormyDay

On the other hand, I avoid like the plague the horse who was winning and then retired.

Now, I have to disagree with this—or at least add an asterisk. Some winning horses, particularly at lower-level tracks, retire because they’ve run out of conditions to race in and simply will not be competitive with a bump up in class. Good trainers and connections will often retire them at this point. This is why it’s very important to know how to read a chart.

Yup.

There’s really nothing I avoid… except certain connections with bad reputations for ruining horses.

[StormyDay]

@Tha_Ridge

@StormyDay

On the other hand, I avoid like the plague the horse who was winning and then retired.

Now, I have to disagree with this—or at least add an asterisk. Some winning horses, particularly at lower-level tracks, retire because they’ve run out of conditions to race in and simply will not be competitive with a bump up in class. Good trainers and connections will often retire them at this point. This is why it’s very important to know how to read a chart.

I guess I should have said, only a few races and were winning. Like less than 6, that’s usually my cut off point. My ‘crazy to not crazy’ guy raced 4 times.
Every horse has to be read with a grain of salt; each one is different circumstances. I’ve seen horses who retired after one race because the owner decided to get out of racing. Not too long ago about 15 TB’s got sold because the owner died and they were not worked for the several months it took to clear his estate, so the horses were essentially worthless on the track.

[victoriakent]

FWIW I find the race notes can often tell a story. In my case my mare is quite fast when she wants to be, but had little interest in racing. This holds true to her personality all these years later - fantastic when she is interested, and a PITA when she doesnt wan’t to be - like a teenaged girl rolling her eyes at you. Her race notes said things like “unhurried, while easily saving ground” “rallied along the rail” and “had some belated interest.”

I’ve also found it helpful to look up the overall history of the trainers. My OTTB had one trainer most of her career, then right at the end went to a trainer who years later was suspended for a LOT of stuff. While he wasn’t suspended while she was with him, it tells me what treatment in that barn was probably like.

[Texarkana]

@victoriakent

FWIW I find the race notes can often tell a story.

They absolutely tell a story, but it’s not a story you can use to make informed decisions about future success or soundness in an unknown horse.

They are written immediately post race and tend to be very formulaic.

Once you know the horse, the comments and footnotes are a great way to gain insight about what your horse may have been like while racing. For example, I owned a very successful runner who was a funny individual. If he didn’t have things his way, he didn’t want to play. So it was pretty hilarious to read his charts and learn he was like that his entire life. You could definitely see a pattern that if the race went his way from the start, he usually won or finished well. If it did not, he finished completely out of the money. But if you didn’t know the horse’s personality, you wouldn’t have been as apt to pick up on that pattern. Also, even if you did, there’s nothing about knowing that info that could predict future success in a different career.

[fivestrideline]

Thanks everyone for the input - bloodlines are so interesting to me as well. I had posted a while back about picking from TB lines for H/J and got some fantastic suggestions!

I think what I’ve gathered here is that I PERSONALLY will avoid trained-but-not-started or single starts unless I can vet it thoroughly or it comes from someone I trust. I will also be digging into all available resources but ultimately trusting my gut - it’s been right more often than not.

I’m also trying to learn as much as I can about conformation and balance and all the other things that come with picking prospects. I like to see them canter, because ultimately that’s the gait I’ll spend most of my time in so I want a canter that I like. The trot can be developed. This will restrict me to resellers, but I think that’s for the best!

[SinMiedo]

I can’t contribute much to this topic other than anecdata, but when I starting thinking about it the contrasts between the two most significant horses in my life seems germane to the conversation. I tend to rely on my eye and vibes more than PPs, etc.
Rambo evented through prelim and was schooling intermediate when his owner started vet school and retired sound.
Toast ran once and is currently doing 1m with the help of annual hock injections and SmartFlex Senior. The video of his only race is telling; you see the field break, run 6F and cross the wire, and then… Toast appears running his heart out with all four legs going different directions.

Stats for comparison:

[Inimitable]

My favorite part of getting a new OTTB prospect is digging into their Equibase profile and trying to piece together their story. I am certainly not an expert and have virtually no real track connections, but I’ve learned a ton over the last 5-6 years. I also pay close attention to breeding, I’ve learned the names I like to see up close in a pedigree.

I’ve sourced 4 TBs since 2017 and had a very different experience with all of them.

1. 2017 - '10 Macho Uno gelding with 12 starts. He earned more than $200K and ran in some big graded stakes. He was my first horse as an adult after a long hiatus from riding and horse ownership. Because of this, I went through a reseller and not directly to the track, I didn’t feel prepared to start one from scratch. I did get a PPE. He has been an absolute failure to launch in his second career. He has all the talent in the world, but he just has too much physical and mental baggage - most from his career at the track, some is just his personality. Kissing spine, EPM, poor feet, you name it - he’s probably got it. I eventually stopped looking for problems and he’s now retired in my field.

2. 2018 - '13 Hat Trick gelding with 26 starts, <$50k in earnings. After my experience with my first gelding, I decided to go straight to the track. I decided I was up for the experience of sourcing, letting down, starting, and producing an OTTB from soup to nuts. I found him via CANTER, no PPE. I know it’s a little taboo to say he was a rescue from the track, but in this case I think it’s valid - the trainer I got him from would agree. She bought him off of a another trainer who was mistreating him, kept him safe (including turning away offers from a few shady individuals), and then I came along. He needed a lot of letdown and TLC, but once his condition improved he was remarkably sound and a very nice horse. He had some mental baggage and was A LOT of horse, so not an easy restart by any means, but we made good progress and I had big plans for him. I lost him in a really awful pasture accident, but he was well on his way to being a competitive jumper for me.

3. 2020 - '13 Court Vision mare, 35 starts around $75K in earnings. I got this mare straight from the track after I lost my gelding. No PPE, just photos and jog video. She raced until she was 7 and came from a barn with good connections. I have been bringing her along for 2.5 years now and it’s SLOW going, but she is getting there. She has been very very sound overall. I only did some maintenance (stifles and RF fetlock) on her this spring when she came back a little sore from our first horse show. Physically she has been fantastic since then. She has absolutely been my most difficult restart. She raced for a long time and took her job VERY seriously, so asking her to learn something new when she thought she knew it all already has been an endless challenge. Her muscle memory from the track was serously ingrained and I’m just now convincing her that she CAN use her muscles in other, better ways. She is spicy and sensitive, but I adore her and I will continue to produce her until she either tells me there’s a real physical issue that can’t be handled with maintenance OR she makes it clear that she just really isn’t into the new gig.

4. 2022 - '10 Hat Trick mare, 14 starts, $73K in earnings, then went on to be a broodmare. I picked this mare up at auction last fall with her 3yo unstarted filly. She had the winter off, I addressed feet, nutrition, parasites, etc., and I started her back up this spring. She’s been back undersaddle for less than three months and she is already very nearly at the same level as my other mare. Her brain is unbeatable, she’s oozing with natural talent, and she’s just overall a doll to have around. Her body is muscling up and transforming before my eyes. I know this is purely anecdotal, but it’s hard not to think that 8 years spent hanging in a herd in a field after her racing career isn’t a big factor in why she’s been so easy to get going in her third career.

So my experience has been kind of all over the place, but I would loosely agree with what some other posters have mentioned. I look for long, unexplained breaks in their records. I get a feel for the connections as best I can, without being an insider. Do their horses ever get breaks and go back to the farm for turnout? Were they bounced from trainer to trainer, or did they stay in only one or two barns for their whole career? I stalk race replays - I agree with buying the canter. If you are interested in a horse that has at least a couple of wins under its belt, the camera usually stays on them after the wire and you can get a sense of their canter as they are pulling up after the finish. I, personally, steer clear of trained but unstarted, or super low starts. I tend to agree that there’s a reason - one that I’m likely not interested in dealing with - that they didn’t make it to the starting gate. Mostly I’m looking at current confo photos, jog video, and close-up photos of legs and feet. My risk tolerance is higher for a number of reasons, but so far the ones I haven’t PPE’d have been the most physically sound.

Good luck! It’s such a fun journey.

[McGurk]

This is the race record of a really nice horse a friend snapped up.

Here’s how I read this race record: slow to figure it out as a two year old, matured as a three year old, improved, broke his maiden and then just couldn’t hack it in allowance company. Rather than flogging him around cheaper and cheaper claiming races as a 5 year old, they rehomed him.

Horse has a lovely disposition, attractive and athletic. If I could find another like him, I’d snap him up in a second.

Its a lovely horse, already happy in his new career.

[BatCoach]

what bloodlines do you like for good ammy-freindly brains? I’m not looking, but just good info to know for the future

[Tha_Ridge]

You didn’t ask me, but I love Jump Start—that’s one I’ll always jump on, pun intended. My Malibu Moon’s and Macho Uno’s have been a little bit trickier and more opinionated, although I LOVED my Orb son so Malibu Moon once-removed seems to take the edge off.

[ClaireBear_NZ]

I’ve had a mix off the track: one who trialled but didn’t race (I’ve seen a video, he was big as a 2yo and also slow af, he galloped up not out, lovely mover), one who raced poorly (slow, small stride, bit of a princess with horses around her, built for feed not speed), another who raced a couple of times (neurotic as a racehorse, didn’t leave the property he was born on until he went to race training as a rising 4yo, I got him off his breeder/owner so had a history, he’s been a challenge mentally but came good in the past 18 months or so, phenomenal jumper), and one who won about $15k (ironically the smallest, she was fried by her owner post racing so runs at jumps but has the best attitude I’ve ever come across).

My friend has one who raced heavily and his race history caught up with him as a sporthorse so didn’t end up eventing as planned. However, he’s found his niche as a confidence builder because his life experience means he does not care about a single thing because he has seen life.

I did buy one who had raced and was a PITA apparently. Strangely, was a PITA once he had his foot in the door so is retired to the back paddock with the cows. I highly suspect something physical but equally, he has absolutely no try. I watched his race videos and he gets to the home straight, checks he’s ahead of one horse, and canters to a second-to-last consistently.

[Texarkana]

@BatCoach

what bloodlines do you like for good ammy-freindly brains? I’m not looking, but just good info to know for the future

I’ll chime in too…

AP Indy close up. So many great sons/grandsons off that line. @Tha_Ridge mentioned Jump Start. Flatter is another with above average brains. Not all AP Indy lines lines are super quiet, but they definitely trend to the saner, easier side of things.

The Unbridled line also got a lot of good brains. Empire Maker, Unbridleds Song, etc.