I have a friend that bought a 4 yo through Benchmark - he’s cute and good minded. She does hunters so a little different ballgame for her than me.
Lol, yes… some WBs can make life dang difficult and thus not always easy to get scores.
My TB was a giveaway off the track, and far better as a dressage horse than racehorse. He evented before I bought him and had a few physical issues he hid but which caused him in trying to behave despite discomfort to basically blow his own mind. Regardless of start he always would have been hot - I calculated 10 miles/week at all out gallop on his own while he was being ridden daily. That was with feed specifically chosen to not give him energy. However, it also mean he was happier the harder he worked. He’s half retired now with feet which aren’t holding up to more than that, and very displeased at lack of work. My trainer and I both imagine what it would have been like to have him at 3 and unstarted, because he is very uphill, pretty flashy moving, insanely athletic, and had both the best canter pirouettes and extended trots in a barn filled with high quality warmbloods. We didn’t school changes because of his tendency to go airborne, but we got changes every time we asked, and he had the rest of the I-1 work down easily. Lovely lateral work, the few times we asked for half steps he immediately understood and showed loads of talent for them, same when asking for a more suspended trot toward passage. Just easy for him.
I absolutely love Pleasant Colony and Deputy Minister type lines. I also look for distance and turf horses. My guy never ran under a mile, and did both grass and turf.
An OTTB capable of being competitive at 4th level is as scarce as hens teeth. Why? Well, first you have to find one with the build which is relatively rare, then you have to find one with the brain, which is rarer (many OTTBs prefer jumping disciplines because they’re bred to run, not carry collection behind).
If you manage to find one that has both of those qualities, it still is unlikely because of how hard racing is on their bodies. Race horses are bred to be thrown away after their careers which rarely leads to long term soundness in a hard working career after racing. Sad and tragic, but true. 4th level is hard work.
Plus you want to be competitive.
Odds are low, but it can be done as others have said.
The quest for upper level dressage (which starts at 4th) is not a fast one. It will be easier if you wait and save more money and buy something more suited for the task at hand.
I’ll be honest, I’ve seen a few TBs in recent years doing UL dressage. I’ve only seen one that I would have actually wanted to own myself. But, boy she was impressive. It used to be easier 20/30 years ago when race breeding was better than it is now.
I also recommend that you do a very comprehensive pre-purchase and be ruthless in what you’re willing to accep— regardless of breed/history.
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Lots of OTTB for sale in that price range, but you would have to look at and try many, then pay for PPE which are pretty expensive. Maybe the best option is to keep your current horse going and start saving money. Right now it is a buyer’s market with COVID-19 and it may last awhile longer. So keep saving and start looking online for a dressage horse, not breed specific.
I got my older OTTB to 3rd level, schooling some 4th. My new prospect hopefully will take me to FEI. My goal is to get all my medals on TBs I’ve trained myself.
I have found several prospects that look like they could do it with the right person.
TB lover here 🙋”♀ï¸
Took my last TB (small mare with less-than-ideal conformation, unraced, unlimited “try”) to competing 3rd (average results) training 4th. Sold her then as schoolmistress, as asking for 4th + collection didn’t seem fair. She tried but hind end conformation made it very difficult.
Current TB (large gelding, 60+ race starts, much baggage) is training 2nd after 9 months dressage training. Had about 2 years before that mooching about and generally trying to forget about being a racehorse. Coach (national GP rider) says he can make it to PSG. Blessed with uphill conformation and straight legs with fair bone. Very balanced canter. Trot is average. Standard good TB walk.
It is undoubtedly easier with a purpose-bred horse.
But if you have the choice of buying a not-very-good WB or a quite nice TB (as was my choice when I got my guy), well, I think TB is worth considering.
Try to find an uphill one with good hindquarters and fair loin connection (latter can be hard to see when race fit), straight legs and good feet. And, the brain!! I think if not 100% confident dealing with super hot horses, I would suggest buying something that has been restarted and proving to be a solid enough citizen.
And be prepared that there will be many times you will wish you had a WB that seems to do everything so easily and naturally… but hopefully the heart on your TB will keep you going on your journey with him/her!
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Very possible!! Thatis, assuming that you are also a rider with what it takes to get to 4th level :). You should be able to find something capable of getting 60%'s up the levels, earning your bronze, doing clean changes, get a feel for the tempis and pirouettes, and dip your toes in 4th level at least. You shouldn’t count on beating the warmbloods, or winning at regional championships, but with decent training and turnout, you won’t look out of place, even at the big shows.
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If you have a budget of 10K, you should be able to find something in the 4 - 8 y.o. range that has at least a few months of training off the track. If you are an amateur looking for dressage potential, IMO it would be worth your money to get something with some training rather than straight off the track. That way you can get some idea of the horse’s temperament and how he accepts the bit.
Do you know about the Thoroughbred Makeover competition? – October in Lexington. Depending on where you live, that might be a good place to look. There are a few hundred OTTB’s with one year of training off the track. Usually several of those horses are for sale in the 10k range after the show. So far, it looks like the competition will still be happening this year, but not sure it will be the same as usual. You may need to watch the competition via video. (Even if you don’t buy there, you might be interested in watching anyway).
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Did you catch the several posters that replied with their own experience, saying they got to fourth with their TBs? COTH is a small world, so imagine what it looks like on a global scale.
Most people don’t realize the horse in warm up is a TB. When they’re mature, and in dressage work, they don’t even look like the same horse that came off the track ten or so years ago.
TBs do have a niche market in jumping disciplines such as eventing, but it’s my opinion this has less to do with innate talent and more to do with the fact that dressage is incredibly expensive. It’s way more expensive than eventing; TBs fill a niche market because they are usually fairly cheap after the track, and the people looking for cheap prospects tend to (but not always) be on a shoestring budget, so naturally, the demographic is pointed towards more affordable show venues – which, as we know, is not exactly Dressage’s demographic.
Most TBs have the brain - it’s really not that rare. What is rare as hens teeth is a quality program / management / style of riding that is conducive to keeping a horse of any breed healthy and happy. I have never had or sat on an uncharitable or nutty TB. I have sat on plenty of uncharitable, nutty horses of other breeds.
P.PS – I would argue that the prospects coming off the track in this day and age are better than ever.
AP Indy, Sadler’s Wells, Storm Cat, Danzig, have totally changed the game through their sons – you can find an incredible mover from El Prado if you are lucky, or a brilliant mover from Giant’s Causeway if they were duds at the track. Storm Cat himself has about 15 sons that reliably stamp good movement. AP Indy has even more. Sadler’s Wells would need no introduction for anyone who has been paying attention to TB pedigrees and how they transfer to post-race careers.
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P.PS – I would argue that the prospects coming off the track in this day and age are better than ever.
AP Indy, Sadler’s Wells, Storm Cat, Danzig, have totally changed the game through their sons – you can find an incredible mover from El Prado if you are lucky, or a brilliant mover from Giant’s Causeway if they were duds at the track. Storm Cat himself has about 15 sons that reliably stamp good movement. AP Indy has even more. Sadler’s Wells would need no introduction for anyone who has been paying attention to TB pedigrees and how they transfer to post-race careers.
Just as a thought, would you considered an appendix QH? Not much different from a TB, but possibly cheaper, and some go back to reining lines which can help with collection. In my experience they can be a bit more mellow than TBs, but equally athletic.
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A nice Appendix is very nice. But some of them get the worst of both sides and end up with a low set thin neck, bad feet, and QH mellowness.
My other suggestion here would be an Iberian or Iberian cross. The really good Lusitanos and Andalusians don’t come cheap. But there are a lot of crossbreds out there, that are very typey, but have fallen through the cracks. Maybe that’s more a West Coast thing.
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There are two horses at Benchmark Sport horses right now that I think are very promising.
This one will be incredible wherever he goes -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TgloTrr5Bg
And I think this one is special, but needs time -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRLHNKS5PFM
Anyone who wants to see what the modern TB type is like, should go through and “audit” all of the horses on BSH’s youtube channel. Easy to do so, and all videos show clips of them W/T/C – some of them riding too – shows plenty of uphill canters, and good movers. Some better than others; there are GREAT moving TBs out there, you just need to know where to find them.
I’m not affiliated with BSH in any way, but thought of this thread when I saw the Simmard gelding in particular. If he was a mare he’d be in my barn tomorrow.
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I can agree with this. My TB (with Danzig and Cee’s Tizzy lines) can do really good work, but we just have to work a little harder to get him there. He won’t tolerate too much repetition or drilling, and we have to go really slow on collected work. When he was w/ a trainer who was only used to purpose-bred dressage WBs - he got fried and rushed and ultimately hurt. She also had a hard time keeping weight on him and gave way too much alfalfa which made him uncharacteristically high. Then I found a trainer who had experience bringing TBs up the levels and it made a huge difference. Totally different feed program, more turnout time and taking things slower to build up the weaker points of his confirmation.
Lesson I learned was find a trainer who 1. believes in your horse 2. has experience with your horse’s bred/body type.
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Best thing to look for is a shorter back, and level or uphill build. Watch for good hock articulation. They are not the norm, but they are out there. Some bloodlines tend to be heavier boned. I got 2 of my TBs to 4th level, and one was schooling p/p when he was 15. Although he had never raced. The second one was off the track. Every time I took him to a show, people would ask - what is he? I’d say Thoroughbred and they would ask, Thoroughbred and what? Because he was big boned and beefy and a very fancy mover. Well, back then. This was almost 30 years ago.
But they do exist. Be patient and one will come along.
ETA: the black fellow in my avatar is an OTTB. I no longer own him, and he became a girls PC mount, but he was a fancy mover and I think I could easily have done 4th level with him, had I kept him.
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I have been curious about the long vs short back. Why is a short back preferred?
Long backed is weaker.
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Long backed horses have a harder time collecting too.
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The first horse I saw perform a Grand Prix test was a thoroughbred, The first FEI horse I rode in a lesson was a TB. I have owned and competed five TBs in dressage. Two were off the track and one was purpose-bred for sport. I have seen a few other FEI TBs and they were lovely. They started out as typical greyhound-looking horses and blossomed into beautifully muscled uphill movers.
The two horses I bought off the track both passed pre-purchase exams with clean flexions. It turned out both had bone spurs in their hocks, which lead to problems in the back and SI joint. One that I competed for a number of years with did fine with routine chiropractic care. Unfortunately, he had a bad experience in a warm-up ring at a show and it made it hard to compete, so I sold him. As far as I know, he is still going well into his mid-twenties as a schoolmaster. Another was a Seattle Slew grand daughter. She was beautiful and moved like a warmblood. Very fancy. And yet another was skinny and ewe-necked when I got him. Two years later, everyone asked if I had bought a new horse. No, same horse. Good training can transform an average horse into a very nice horse.
All of my horses were nice movers. I found the Bold Ruler, Turn-To, and Seattle Slew lines produced nice sport horses. Of course those are old bloodlines. TBs now are more diverse and others who have posted have pointed out what to look for.
I’ll second what has been written about buying off the track. Look for a uphill built horse (stifle to elbow). Talk to people associated with the horse to get an idea of temperament. Do a very thorough pre-purchase with lots of X-rays if possible. Look very carefully at the SI joint. It seems most horses come off the track sore behind. Carefully look at the angles in front and back. I avoid horse with high hocks and long canon bones behind. If you can afford it, shop for a horse bred for sport.
If you find the right horse, you will have a wonderful partner.
Regarding long and short backs: two of mine were short backed. They were much tighter and harder to bend. The longer backed horses were easier to sit and they bent like butter…
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