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Overpriced horse breeds?

Yes absolutely have to watch for genetic issues- PSSM, CLP. It’s important to do your research for sure! One of mine does have sweet itch which is a pain to deal with, but everything else about him is so wonderful- we just deal with the sweet itch and fly sheets 24/7 from April through November lol!

I’m lucky my two guys are just good eggs, I bought them both as unstarted babies @ ages 2 and yearling from the same breeder. And over the last 10 years have bought a couple others really cheap from people who didn’t know how to handle them lol that easily came around and became good citizens. And we start one or two a year for the breeder my other 2 boys are from.

I think there’s a lot of value in a good cob type horse- they’re just not a big thing in the US for whatever reason. We love our warmbloods, Quarter horses and thoroughbreds I guess over here (who all also have a variety of genetic issues too though…)

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Hahaha! I can relate to that. My BLM Mustang has some feathering and a thick mane and tail. It looks good and was probably a favored trait for fly defense. Not too much hair, though. Easy to keep clean, even though she has four white socks.

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I’m glad you’re happy with them! I got away from QHs years ago because of genetic issues. I don’t think I want to take any chances.

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I dabble in Irish Draughts (heavy to very heavy hunter, not “draft”) and some of the prices there are ridiculous. Maybe not as high as some of the in vogue WB breeds, but there is just no way I’m paying $15k for an in utero purchase. There is a lovely imported mare near me who went Class 1 at inspection last year (like Premium), going five this year, not undersaddle yet, I believe the owners are asking somewhere north of $30k. They took a full page ad out for her in the annual breed magazine. Most of the higher prices are for the sport crosses, IDxTB, they do phenomenal at eventing and if you watch a lot of them you’ll see many IDSH/ISH competing at upper level. Some with higher TB or WB percentage (25% ID are still registerable) are trickling into hunterland too and just looking at the pictures I can hear the cash register chimes. I’ve seen some of these sport crosses in the $40-60k range.

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I’m surprised he can get them for that low. I’m “close” to New Holland auction (1.5-2 hours) and that would be “meat prices” for most draftXs. I love my big PerchX and I would hate to see any drafty go to the kill pen buyer.

I’m glad your friend’s son saves these good guys from a worse fate and gives them skills to live a productive life.

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The harm is what happens to both horse and rider when the horse is too much for the person. People and horses get hurt. Just because someone can afford a “Lamborghini” doesn’t mean that all cars (horses) should be fast, sleek and reactive.

What is a person supposed to do when they are trying to move up the levels but can’t find a horse that is both safe and capable?

https://forum.chronofhorse.com/t/coping-with-unexpected-changes-loss/783127/19?

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So, what are you advcating here?
Do you think that a seller should require a competency test before a buyer can purchase a horse?
Or should they raise the price beyond what the prospective buyer can afford if they deem the person not competent?
Or that breeders should cease breeding “fast, sleek, and reactive” animals because somebody with more money than brains might buy one?

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Yes, because not every foal from those PSG pairings is going to make it to PSG for a variety of factors outside of their own inherent quality. They have to survive foalhood, survive being backed, make it to a training barn, and stay sound in a ridden program. Once they are in ridden work, if they don’t have the talent for PSG they make great mid-level horses, some for AAs. Having talent for UL and being AA are not mutually exclusive despite popular perception.

The UL bred WB horses are not contributing to the overflow of horses and the slaughter pipeline and their population is infinitesimal when compared to populations of other breeds. TBs, STBs, and QHs make the bulk of overflow and slaughter candidates, with QHs being the majority by a long margin. If you want to set your sights on market overflow start there.

If you want the best guarantee of a UL product from UL pairings, you have to pay for it and yes the market value is in the five figures for an in-utero pairing of two UL horses. It makes more sense if you look at it from a breeder’s perspective - collection, insemination, ET (most of the UL mares are still competition horses themselves), costs associated with carrying the product to term via recip mare, all reproductive exams, etc and you are easily approaching a $10k bill before the foal ever hits the ground if everything goes swimmingly (no pun intended).

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I like horse flippers if they save lives.

I see the same thing with older ranch QHs here. I’m not sure how that works out for families, but I’m sure those horses know how to work. Maybe they turn into pets. Maybe they pick up bad habits. They’d probably be make decent lesson horses, though.

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I am advocating for more affordable horses that adult ammies can handle. That is what this thread is about, is it not? Overpriced horse breeds?

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I’m all for more affordability and accessibility in the sport. My question is, who should take a bath financially so these amateurs can have accessibility to the top quality horses in the sport? The breeder? The stallion owner? The trainer[s]?

At some point, some realism needs to come into play and people may need to select the best horse for their situation – not the best horse for their wants. If you are an average amateur rider, why do you need an in-utero foal from a PSG pair? Wouldn’t it make more sense for you to take that $20-30k and buy a schoolmaster?

I do not think WBs are the overpriced horse breed, JMO. Some can be overpriced, and some breeders have serious barn-blindness when it comes to selling their babies, but the majority of “overpriced” horses I see on the market that make my eyebrows raise are actually green, unproven horses that are unsuitable for anything but a pro.

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They (should) support trainers to help them.
It could be a positive for the industry if you look at it that way.

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I think you guys are both making good points about warmbloods. On one hand, there should be a market for the highly competitive, well built horses that have potential. That’s really a specific market and I’m sure everyone wants to think their warmblood can make it, so maybe the breeders with horses that don’t quite have to breeding want to sell at those higher prices. It’s up to the buyers to set the prices based on demand. People can ask anything they want for their horses, but if the horse stays on the market too long, they’re losing money in feed. It really should self regulate.

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And I’d like to advocate for high quality hay at half the price I’m currently paying. Alas, the market says “no”.

Again–a horse is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
If the horse is truly overpriced, nobody will buy it.
If somebody buys it, they apparently belive the animal is worth what they paid.
Whether or not the buyer is capable of safely riding the horse is another matter entirely.

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A free market says that the item in most demand commands the highest price. You imply that the safe ammy ride should be less expensive than the upper level pro ride athletes. The market says otherwise.

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Very true. That’s also why horse clinics fare well these days. :joy:

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I think many of us wish nice horses were sold at reasonable prices these days. However, I think finances dictate that breeders can’t just focus on breeding nice horses and keep their heads above water. They need bigger payouts to cope with the cost of feed, hay, and property. That leaves us buyers with lower budgets few options (by low I mean 4 figures instead of 5!). We either take a chance with private sellers and spend money on PPEs, take a huge risk and go to an auction, or try raising a Mustang. That last option is my route. I don’t have the expertise to deal with figuring out whether or not a horse I look at has been drugged. BLM horses are what they are. No tricks.

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The issue is that is costs nearly the same to breed an UL prospect as it does an “ammy friendly” mount. You may save $1000 or so on the stud fee, and I guess if you don’t need to do ET you could save some money there as well. But the mare care, foal care, vet costs, feed costs, land or board expenses, are all the same whether your horse is worth $30k or $5k. If you’re doing it right that is. So why would a breeder choose to go to all the trouble and expense to breed a foal only worth $5k when it costs them just as much to breed the $30k foal? Sure, not every baby is going to be an Olympian even if you intend for it to be, but that doesn’t mean breeders are going to purposefully breed lesser quality horses.

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So much to consider - prices on everything have gone way up including horses. The cost of feeding and keeping a horse has risen significantly; so, it shouldn’t surprise anyone that the breeders are expecting or needing to get more for what they produce. Then there is the question of training. If you can’t do it yourself, it will cost to have training put on the horse and in my area I see fewer and fewer ‘trainers’ willing or honestly capable of starting/backing horses. I also know for at least the breeds I’ve been mostly involved with so many breeders have either cut back on their numbers or gotten out entirely that fewer and fewer selectively bred horses were produced for a period of time, driving the demand.

Speaking with experience, the way I kept costs down when I was breeding for amateur friendly sport type mounts which was before covid- I bred enough generations to have mares and stallions I thought worthy, starting way back, acquiring youngstock from other breeders to keep purchase prices low and later culling those I felt didn’t fit in my program. Fortunately my selection process was tight enough that the ‘culling’ wasn’t a common practice but I did it when necessary. I backed and started ALL of my youngstock if they stayed around long enough to hit the appropriate age and all of those I acquired as unstarted youngstock which was the vast majority. Those that stayed were not just kid tested and mother approved they were actually mother started LOL. In addition to doing all the training from the ground up, all the showing/campaigning, I did my own vet work because I have a DVM. I owned my property (selling two previous horse properties that made me a modest amount of money) and basically kept everything relatively small in number and focus because I was mostly a team of 1 with two children who grew up having to help. My small sliver of the horse breeding world showed me that I could produce and raise foals to two years of age with training for most everything on the ground which included being trained to load, haul and in some cases having gone to shows for under $5000 before covid. I also had a few ‘sweet deals’ fall into my lap regarding broodmares and other opportunities that I was able to leverage to achieve my breeding and showing goals without putting the same expense into those endeavors as others would have or do. Realistically if I still had ‘it all’ I’m guessing (it’s an educated guess) that barring any unforeseen catastrophe I could still manage to get it done for just under $7500, may be even $5000 but that would have required freezing my stallion’s semen among a few other ways to cut costs.

Some key aspects - I never hired any help. My vet expenses, which there were some outside ones were minimal when you considered the number of horses I had and sold along with what I was doing. My advertising costs were very minimal yet I was able to get horses sold or moved relatively quickly in a way that kept me afloat. My personal riding horses were my stallions, my broodmares and two geldings and they also served my children. I also have always been employed, working full-time outside of my home since graduation. Quite frankly this didn’t only keep me solvent, it also prevented me from growing too big, doing too much, or losing my shirt on gambles I couldn’t otherwise afford.
Still, personal lifestyle changes required me to disband my program and after I did that and had an opportunity to take a deep breath, it was apparent that I was dog-tired. I don’t know how much longer I would have physically been able to have kept up that pace.

Sitting from my vantage point in which I still work full-time, still ride full-time and compete occasionally for personal goals AND still own horse property, the only way I will continue in horses if anything unexpected happens to the 4 I currently own (which includes one retired gelding) is to go the mustang route (a big gamble imo if you want to compete though not necessarily saying it can’t be done) or purchase something under the age of 2. I’m turning 60 later this summer, so there will come a time where those options won’t be quite as ‘lucrative’ or feasible for me. The last horse I backed/started from the ground is now 6; so, that was 3 years ago. However, one reason why I have stuck with the breeds that own me has been my long time focus that if ever presents where I can no longer swing my leg over, then I’ll just drive it; so, section A Welsh and/or minis may be my next purchases/acquisitions should vacancies become available at my Ranch of Last Resort :wink: One of the first things I learned after many a pony-ride as a very young child was how to hitch a team…so though I’d be very rusty, the concept isn’t completely foreign.

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I think this is the main issue. It’s not that there aren’t affordable horses out there for amateurs, it’s that there aren’t really affordable horses for amateurs that are also fancy, competitive, on the younger side, and capable of taking someone up the levels. Those horses are expensive, for good reason! Just keeping a horse is expensive regardless of how nice it is, and then you factor in training and showing, and the fact that good temperaments don’t grow on trees and breeders have to put resources into developing those lines. Prices reflect all of those inherent costs plus what it takes for breeders and trainers to make a living; I think those individuals usually short-change themselves if anything but they deserve to earn a wage that reflects their skill and expertise, and the sport won’t survive if they can’t.

I recently bought a horse, as a pretty average amateur rider on a budget, and I really didn’t see many horses I thought were overpriced. The few that did make me roll my eyes were pretty much what you said - the unproven pro-rides with “scope to go all the way!” but nothing obvious to back that claim up. I was actually pleasantly surprised by how many options there were in my low-fives budget. There were mid-teens schoolmasters for someone prioritizing experience and plenty of well-started green horses and OTTBs for those looking for future potential. The 8-12 year old established mid-level packers were out of my budget but not by too much, and I generally thought those were fairly priced too.

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