P.R.E. import: to geld or not to geld?

[FEIwannabe]

I posted this in Dressage, but was advised that it would be better to post it here. Plus some new developments in my situation make it more appropriate for the Breeding section.

I just recently bought a P.R.E. He’s still in Spain, but I thought I might post his bloodlines and see if anyone knows anything about them. I didn’t buy him based on bloodlines and I confess I don’t know much about them. But I’d be interested to find out what you guys may know about my new boy’s ancestors.

http://www.lgancce.com/lgpreancce/asp-publico/arbolGenealogicoPRE/ConsultarArbolGenealogicoPRE.aspx?ID=O9eXRyhgn8s=

The trainer emailed me today asking me if I’m sure I want to still geld him, because she is very impressed with him and his temperament. I’m not worried about owning a stallion except that it’ll be harder to find a place to board him - but not impossible. Plus we’ll be getting our own place in the next 3-4 years so boarding won’t be an issue eventually.

However, I know NOTHING about breeding and have a gazillion questions. If his bloodlines turn out to be desirable, I was thinking of contacting a couple of breeders of P.R.E.'s in the general area to pick their brain. If they like the bloodlines, would they “represent” him? Does it ever work that way? Because I CERTAINLY will not want to handle the breeding.

[Blume_Farm]

I cannot help you with PRE blood lines. However, I can tell you that importing a stallion is a MUCH bigger endeavor than a gelding…even if he is not to be a breeding stallion. A gelding has no quarantine requirements once in this country. A stallion MUST be quarantined at an APPROVED facility and live cover two mares and found free of CEM before being released. I believe the average length of time a stallion is quarantined is 30 days. It will increase your costs significantly. If he has never covered a live mare he will need some training to make fulfilling quarantine requirements easier. Also, some stallions once they have live covered a mare can have some behavioral changes that may need to be retrained.

Unless I was importing some fabulous BREEDING stallion, and not just a horse for sport, I would geld him before importation.

[tucktaway]

If your research suggests that he is good enough to breed, perhaps you could have him collected and frozen and then import him as a gelding.

[alexandra]

I think both of the previous postes have summed up everything you need to consider.

[honeylips]

Just an FYI in April of this year stallion quarantine was increased to 35-40 days. It’s schockingly expensive. I’ve got 2 weeks to go for my stallion in quarantine and its been a crazy long 5 weeks

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;7232849]
I cannot help you with PRE blood lines. However, I can tell you that importing a stallion is a MUCH bigger endeavor than a gelding…even if he is not to be a breeding stallion. A gelding has no quarantine requirements once in this country. A stallion MUST be quarantined at an APPROVED facility and live cover two mares and found free of CEM before being released. I believe the average length of time a stallion is quarantined is 30 days. It will increase your costs significantly. If he has never covered a live mare he will need some training to make fulfilling quarantine requirements easier. Also, some stallions once they have live covered a mare can have some behavioral changes that may need to be retrained.

Unless I was importing some fabulous BREEDING stallion, and not just a horse for sport, I would geld him before importation.[/QUOTE]

My trainer tells people who think of leaving Dobbin a stallion: Do you have the skill to take him to the top? Do you have the money to pay a top pro to take him to the top? 95% would be mediocre stallions, but superb gelding. My vote is geld :).

[Cartier]

If he were already here in the USA, I’d say there’d be no problem with keeping him a stallion, as long as he handles it well and you can provide the right environment for him. But as Melissa and others have pointed out, it is very expensive to import a stallion. The mere fact that you are coming here to ask if it is a good idea seems to indicate that you really don’t know enough about breeding, and/or about his pedigree and phenotype, and where he would fit in the market here (if at all) to deal with keeping him a stallion. It would be different if you knew the answers to your own questions and knew that he was so unique and so valuable that it would make $$$ sense to keep him a stallion. There are probably lots of other things you don’t know about the market.

We love our stallion, he has perfect manners, and lives in a barn with mares and geldings, and goes to small shows with no problem. But he is our pet and is not being bred. And he does not pay his way at all. We do not need him to. If we did, we’d be broke.

Few stallions get enough breedings to cover the costs of keeping them intact. I love our stallion, he is a joy, but we have a very unique situation with our trainer Danielle Veasy that makes having him a joy. http://vzsporthorses.com/ Danielle is unique in so many ways. I think it would be tricky to find a trainer with her beautiful farm and her experience. You might find that most barns where you want to board and train at don’t allow stallions. There are 1002 things that will pop up when you own a stallion, and become a headache for you. Geld and enjoy him.

[Megaladon]

Well, I’ll come at this from the perspective of a mare owner. I would want to see more of your horse, photos and video. What level of training has he had? He would have to have the movement I would want in my own breeding program for me to consider him. Also, a temperament par excellence. It is not unheard of to have not so well tempered PRE stallions.

I worked at a large breeding/stallion station that boarded stallions. They had a breeding lab and phantom mount that could be used by everyone. People would haul in their studs for collection as well. The farm had staff that would help with collection but the rest was up to the owners–advertising etc. You could see if the PRE breeders would board your stallion, but “representing,” maybe not but I don’t know. I think your main importance would be finding him a place to live–you could always haul to a collection facility.

[fire_911medic]

I will weigh in here from a bit different perspective. I have assisted with the import and export of lovely horses and know that much as the others have said stallion quarantine is difficult to say the least. As a breeder you are faced with this decision not only of if but when to geld. I think a very feasible idea has already been expressed of freezing semen and then geld. However an evaluation of semen would be warranted either route. You want to know potential fertility. I will speak from the perspective of a stallion owner. It is a royal pain EVERYTHING has to be thought and double thought and checked. My stallion has a phenomenal temperament and very rideable thus why he has been allowed to remain intact. That changes his stud status will change immediately. If you show this horse there are always idiots at shows that swap around stalls. When I go I book a section so I know either a tack stall or gelding is on the other side after an incident at a rather large show where I ignorantly trusted the stabling arrangement and the people next to us parked their made (in heat) in the slatted stall next to my stud. He nickered and I got onto him and he hushed. Thankfully he has good sense and yes he has bred mares. But could have gone very wrong before I realized it. But you have to be alert for things like that. People that randomly stop their made in front of your studs stall. How much experience do you have with stallions? Do you have or are you willing to commit to breeding facilities and the marketing of a stud? If you collect him the rigors or collection and breeding schedule depending on if you choose AI live cover or both. If you don’t have facilities do you have access to some to do needed work ? Are you prepared to handle him in breeding/collection or do you need to hire someone or send him somewhere ? Are you willing to take on the additional liability of owning a stud. Most importantly look at yourself and if you decide you want a stallion is THIS the stallion you want ? I have handled stallions both ai and live cover and worked as a stallion handler for two thoroughbred farms so I knew what I was getting into. My stallion was bred with the intent of if he was correct and nice minded with ability he would be my stallion. I am not interested in keeping more than one. If you decide you are up for the challenge and the horse is nice enough or you have access to experienced stallion help go for it. But realize there are many options for him. Best wishes to you and your new partner.

[Sonesta]

So many great, informative replies here to consider. I’ll just throw out my own in my typical, blunt way:

IMHO, an intact stallion is for the extremely experienced (with stallions) or the extremely wealthy (who can pay for someone with extreme stallion experience). If you are neither of these, then geld him pre-import.

You will then have a wonderful rideable gelding and can then, maybe, reach your FEI goals on your own horse.

[exvet]

It sounds to me like at least where you are now in life, owning a stallion may not be in everyone’s best interest. If you already had your own place then I might say otherwise. I agree that checking into freezing then gelding THEN importing may be the best decision if he’s that nice and his bloodlines are in demand on this side of the pond. I will also agree that keeping a stallion has its challenges but it also has its rewards.

I am one who does not market my stallion. I have my own mares and breed for myself and my family. I have access to a couple of stallion stations should I want to collect and ship. I do have experience handling stallions in the breeding shed; but, even if I didn’t I easily have access to those who do. I show my stallion and have done all the training on him. His disposition is wonderful which appears to be passing on to his offspring. I mention all this because not everyone with a stallion has to market, has to campaign, has to, has to, has to…; but, it is wise to have a plan and the more manageable the situation is, the more options you have before you, should things change (and adds value to the stallion).

I do plan to reach FEI with my stallion (have done so with others) but the issues with showing a stallion are near and dear to my heart because I too have lived through those wild card moments There are times because of the never relenting requirement of looking out for others that I have considered gelding my stallion because of my riding goals; but, to be honest he deserves to remain a stallion (by my standards alone, I don’t measure my goals by anyone else’s). Also to add to the list of challenges of stallion ownership and riding said stallion, there are many times I haul to clinics or lessons and my stallion must remain on the trailer because there is no where else I can safely put him. I am fortunate that he is a good joe and will stand quietly in the trailer or tied to it in almost any circumstance. The other key thing is, I do have my own place and can make my own rules that everyone must follow which imo is the only way to keep a stallion and not go insane.

I just wanted to present another ‘side’ of stallion ownership which isn’t quite as mainstream or high society as the others. Good luck with your new boy. It sounds like you have an exciting path ahead regardless of which direction you choose to go.

[Blume_Farm]

Just wanted to add if you freeze his semen, then geld, then import make sure he is collected and frozen at a station that allows EXPORT of the semen to the US (as I am sure you will want to have access to his semen).

[FEIwannabe]

Everyone has had great advice. Thank you.
Truth is that it’s a tiny chance for him to remain intact. I like the idea of the possibility of freezing, gelding then importing. But I’m not entirely sure that is even worth the effort.
But there are a few Andalusian/P.R.E. breeders in the area. I think I’ll contact them to see if - on the off chance - they may be interested in his bloodlines. But the most important thing for me right now is to have fun, learn and advance with my new partner.
I just hope the gelding won’t effect his personality and his energy level in a negative way.

[IhaveSpirit]

Hi - I currently have one PRE mare (I just sold my PRE Colt) and you are in my area I would be happy to chat with you about what is going on in the breed both locally and nationally.

In order to be able to register his foals with ANCEE, he needs to be revised before he is gelded. Just something else to think about.

If you want to chat, PM me and I will send you my number.

[honeylips]

Be aware that freezing for semen eligible for import to the USA is a lengthy process and expensive. 30 day quarantine at an approved facility, then weeks of collection and freezing, then another 30 days until eligible to export. It’s a long process and pricey.