Palomino filly going through the Jan Keeneland Sale ...

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=Pronzini;3813618]
Get back to me when the palominos start running or one is born that doesn’t need its color to market it. Its damned expensive to keep a racehorse in training and real talent is rare–believe me a plain bay that pays its way and holds value is a beautiful horse to most owners I know. I haven’t detected any great interest in the novelty colors in the racing trenches or anywhere except for places like here.

More power and great luck to you. Personally I have found it tough enough to do this game conventionally. I have no idea why someone would want to make it tougher–which of course is what you are doing when you are racing horses with obscure pedigrees that produce color. I suspect after several months of losing – and badly–the owners of the white horses I alluded to may have gotten a little battered financially. I’ve done both show and racing. I may want my show horse to be pretty but I need my racehorse to be fast and I doubt I’m alone.[/QUOTE]

I want my racehorses to be fast, too. I confess to having bought horses at auction that, until ten minutes later when the dust settles and the ticket is signed and I’ve gone back to the barn to have a look at them, I didn’t even know what color they were.

However…if someone has the resources and the spare money in this economy to choose to race a horse that’s pretty as well as hopefully functional, more power to him. I got into horse racing to have fun–as I suspect many other people did as well. If having a palomino racehorse, no matter how dudious her credentials may appear, is fun for her new owner then he’ll probably get plenty of enjoyment out of her achievements whether other racehorse owners find them noteworthy or not.

[TrueColours]

Nice dodge.

Pronzini - WHO is dodging???

YOU took this discussion veering out into left field by bringing up Candy Spots and coloured TB’s:

The only reason right now that color TBs get decent money at Keeneland is that they are still a novelty and it seems you can always find a fringe of people to invest in novelties. But other than a very small handful (Candy Spots anyone?), there hasn’t been a single one that most people would actually want to own as a racehorse.

who the last time I checked was not a palomino or a dilute of any description … and I simply pointed out the “coloured” TB’s that have been rather successful as race horses …

Pronzini - the sport needs new money, new people, a new direction to instill some of the glamour, fun and prestige of being a part of horse racing. It sure as Hell isnt being too successful right now and for every huge player leaving the game, there isnt even one small “dreamer” getting into it to stop the bleeding and the exodus out of the horse racing sport in mass numbers.

So - in my ever so humble opinion if that then means that some people get into the sport to have fun and to try and be successful with a horse that perhaps doesnt fit the traditional mold - so be it. All the best to them. If that then means they and their family and friends come to the track and have lunch and buy a bunch of drinks to watch their pretty palomino run - great. That exactly what this sport needs to get back on track and will keep the trainers, excercise riders and jockeys employed

And what is so wrong with that???

If having a palomino racehorse, no matter how dudious her credentials may appear, is fun for her new owner then he’ll probably get plenty of enjoyment out of her achievements whether other racehorse owners find them noteworthy or not.

Exactly.

And I am hoping that her credentials are less “dubious” rather than simply “unproven” and “untested” … … but of course only time will tell on this one and on the Beyond Blonde palomino colt that is in FL training now and should be running by March / April …

[Dinah-do]

Where is the fun in having a pretty horse that runs up the track? It is like having a pretty horse with a dirty stop. $15,000.00 for a yearling filly, at a sale, palomino or other wise as a hunter prospect? Not my cheque book. I do not care for palomino hunters. Way to hard to keep clean and just looks too western to me.

[TrueColours]

Where is the fun in having a pretty horse that runs up the track?

Geez Louise … the poor filly isnt even broke yet, let alone has she started training, let alone has she RACED, and already she is “running up the track” … :lol: :rolleyes: :lol:

How about we give her another few months or a year before we doom her to finishing last before she has even started her career …

Personally speaking, I’d rather be debating the merits in a few years time as to whether the Glitter Please line is known to throw better race horses than the Milkie line …

Give these bloodlines a fair chance to prove or disprove their ability and talent, just like you would any other 2 year old, if it was a bay or a chestnut …

[system]

what’s the problem?

I have to jump in on this firstly because I personally know Tom Bentley and have had his palomino colt (who’s a 4 y.o. currently and looking for a race this summer) in training on and off. Tom has a very specific idea and that is to create a palomino race horse. He is NOT breeding ton’s and ton’s of crap creating the surplus of race horses you see today. He has a very specific mission with only one or two foals each year. ALWAYS with the horse’s best interest in mind. What’s the problem with this?

Since there are so many here criticizing this fillys pedigree, saying it’s not “racing” pedigree, I have to ask…how do you think there ever became a such thing as “racing” pedigree? It was and is because of breeders who chose their desired traits to breed into the “modern thoroughbred”, who just happens to have become a GLASS HORSE for the most part. There are many great race horses who had unraced Dams or Dams who were NOT good race horses. There are also extremely well bred horses who can’t run a lick.

So, my point is, why criticize this breeding operation?

Secondly, I have to say that I have galloped many Stake winners for big operations and I galloped Limehouse (ran 4th in the KY Derby) for 9 months. I can personally say that the palomino TB colt that I have had in training is the caliber of some of the stake horses I have ridden. He has not run simply because he has not been in consistent training and has been given time to mature physically.

Finally, don’t you think your time would be better spent complaining about the racing tactics of some TB trainers? Those who have a hundred or more horses in their barn and a waiting list just as long? Oh, hell…break one down and empty the stall…I’ve been there and seen it too often, and am thankful that these Pally owners care more about their horses more than that.

Oh, and this was not a YEARLING filly, she is a two year old with Three months training, ($3,000+ that the new owner won’t have to spend!)

[aurum]

Life has often proven that “outsiders” can run and can win, so keep cool and wait.

[Equinoxfox]

So Did Anyone

Since I followed the entire sale up until Saturday. I had to miss it . I had to travel to Northern, Maryland. To go and try a horse.
So, did anyone YOU TUBE the auction of the filly ? I know she sold but wondered if it is posted and what you guys think of her chances at racing .
Any news ?

[futurewin]

Splash of Vanilla went for 14k and was sold to Dr. Naveed Chowan

[Beezer]

@TrueColours;3813814

Pronzini - the sport needs new money, new people, a new direction to instill some of the glamour, fun and prestige of being a part of horse racing. It sure as Hell isnt being too successful right now and for every huge player leaving the game, there isnt even one small “dreamer” getting into it to stop the bleeding and the exodus out of the horse racing sport in mass numbers. [/QUOTE]

And none of that happened with this filly, so I’m not sure what your point is. She was bought by someone who has been in racing for quite some time, someone who wanted her because she’s a novelty (which is what his agent who signed the ticket said).

Am I honestly reading your previous posts correctly? You acknowlege that color TB breeders just kept breeding and breeding pretty-colored horses, based on their color alone, with no performance record to show whether all that breeding was producing athletes? Wow.

[QUOTE=amberacing;3814413]I have to jump in on this firstly because I personally know Tom Bentley and have had his palomino colt (who’s a 4 y.o. currently and looking for a race this summer) in training on and off. Tom has a very specific idea and that is to create a palomino race horse. He is NOT breeding ton’s and ton’s of crap creating the surplus of race horses you see today. He has a very specific mission with only one or two foals each year. ALWAYS with the horse’s best interest in mind. What’s the problem with this?

If that’s his goal, then he needs to start with better mares (like the other two he sold at Keeneland, which went for fractions of this filly’s price, despite being much, much better bred – complete with black type – and having won races – making them good prospects for a regional broodmare band, yes? ). Then he crosses them with one of the cremello or palomino TB stallions out there and voila, he has much better odds of producing a fancy-colored racehorse.

And if he wants to produce only palomino TBs, then he needs to start with a well-bred chestnut mare with a race record and cross her with one of the aforementioned cremello or palomino TB studs.

Surely, if he has been breeding wanna-be TB racehorses for any length of time, he knows by now that the mare’s family is where the value comes from. Color genetics can be tricker, but they can be understood on a rudimentary level fairly easily.

As for your “tons and tons of crap” comment, breeders on every.single.level of every.single.horse.breed are rethinking their breeding plans. Just because a horse is a pretty color does NOT make it immune to the realities of the real world. Anyone who thinks that needs to go to some killer sales. Many a pretty-colored horse has a come to a bad end.

[TrueColours]

Am I honestly reading your previous posts correctly? You acknowlege that color TB breeders just kept breeding and breeding pretty-colored horses, based on their color alone, with no performance record to show whether all that breeding was producing athletes? Wow.

Uhhh … not quite … :rolleyes: … but I will acknowledge that back in the “Milkie” days in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s most if not ALL of those coloured TB’s produced never saw a saddle in their lives and went straight into breeding sheds …

Today - yeah - you still do have some breeders with 8 and 10 year old “coloured” stallions that have never been backed, never been sat on, let alone sent to any registry for approval and judging / scoring, nor have they been shown so yes - your comments above are not exactly out in “left field” either …

That why my “coloured” stallion DID go through his approvals, DID get shown and DID achieve his performance accredation. Aurum in Germany is doing the same with her “coloured” stallions, the client in Scotland that bought my stallion and my homebred colt is doing the same - approvals, fulfilling performance criteria, show career - the same as any WB stallion owner would do and I hope in time with those of us that DO go the proper route with our stallions will continue to rise above those who choose NOT to do so and simply stick their stallions in the breeding shed and thats it …

breeders on every.single.level of every.single.horse.breed are rethinking their breeding plans.

And on this comment - I beg to differ … I am not re-thinking anything on any level. Yes - I have sold key components in my breeding program but they are also forming an integral part in it going forward as well, as I head into previously unknown territory for me, which is a lot of ET breeding, frozen semen storage and sales for the stallions I have now as well as some new ones from Europe, plus some pretty darned exciting acquisitions and opportunities looming on the horizon as well …

[Beezer]

TC, we’re not talking warmbloods; last I checked, no one was racing them. None of the things you describe – ETs, AI or whatever – can be done with TBs bred for racing.

And the very fact that you have sold your horses means you’ve changed your breeding plans. Because you have chosen to stockpile the genetic material simply gives you the option of waiting until the sporthorse market makes a comeback. But again, this filly is supposedly destined for the racetrack, so it’s what her relations have done – or not, as the case may be – on the track is what’s being discussed.

[system]

“tons and tons of crap” refers to the breeders who have a breeding operation of for example, 50 or more horses sitting in their back yard. We all know breeders like this, where there are too many horses to even put in training, and the mentality all to often becomes something like, well I have X amount of dollars in grain, hay, etc. therefore I must get X amount of dollars for the sale of this horse.

As for him using better mares, well… to be honest, what’s wrong with improving his mare (where the color is coming from in this example) by breeding her to a stallion who compliments her? The TB world has plenty of stallions to choose from, but breeding to a commercial stallion can be financially impossible for a small breeder.

This is for the most part a fledgeling operation, that has to start somewhere. The hopes obviously are to have a better conformed, better bred horse with each generation.

[TrueColours]

And the very fact that you have sold your horses means you’ve changed your breeding plans. Because you have chosen to stockpile the genetic material simply gives you the option of waiting until the sporthorse market makes a comeback

Wow. You couldnt be more wrong. Why would you make ANY assumptions on this??? And I dont have to wait for anything to be very honest …

Beezer - obviously you missed this part of my post and didnt pick up on it either:

plus some pretty darned exciting acquisitions and opportunities looming on the horizon as well …

TB acquisitions. Live Cover. Breed them together and you get even MORE full Jockey Club TB’s …

and I am WELL aware of this as well … my foray into ET breeding is a sideline - something Ive wanted to try and something I have a strong market for

None of the things you describe – ETs, AI or whatever – can be done with TBs bred for racing.

Your comment of:

with no performance record to show whether all that breeding was producing athletes? Wow.

prompted me to explain that my stallion and Aurum’s stallion (both TB’s BTW …) have gone through approval processes AND have shown or will be showing - they dont just sit in the back 40 and pump their semen into any mare with a uterus to produce foals “with pretty colours” …

Now is it all clear?

[Calamber]

I have to wholeheartedly agree with you Beezer. Since when did breeding for color in the racehorse world have any merit to it at all. For that matter, same goes for any horse. It is simple fadishness, breeding for performance, soundess of mind, wind and limb is the key. Not “I want to go down in history as the man who ran the yellowest horse.”:lol: You do have to be kidding right? Did he really say his goal is to have a palomino racehorse? Not the fastest and soundest, or longest lasting family but one of color. All I have to say is he has some really lofty goals and right up the alley with what racing really needs… I guess PT Barnum was right. geez… Well, one thing for sure, the kill buyers don’t give a hoot what color that slow or broken down racehorse is when they come through the ring.

[eventer4eva]

just thought I would share my opinion…

ok ok so I just came back to this forum and saw the great amount of controversy swirling regarding breeding for color…

so yes I understand that there is a problem with unwanted horses…

but I also don’t think that these few breeders who might breed a handful of horses a year are who we should be attacking. even if these “color” breeders aren’t breeding first and foremost for racing performance above all else, I can say with certainty that the palomino filly who is the starter of this whole conversation was a lovely individual, and nicer physically than many other 2yo fillies I saw at the sale.

I agree with the earlier poster who noted that these fancily colored horses will have a better shot of finding a happy career even if they don’t make it on the racetrack… I personally would be inclined to be pretty excited about a colored TB over a “plain” colored one. (no, I don’t want to fight about it, I’m just saying that as a potential end user of an OTTB, I would look at color and appearance… ) I see a lot of backyard breeders breeding animals for no apparent reason whatsoever… at least color breeders have some goal in mind, maybe you just don’t agree with it… at least there is a goal aside from “that horse has testicles and that one has a uterus. lets see what happens…”

so if someone wants to purchase a lovely palomino filly and try and make her a racehorse… more power to him!!! I for one will be watching for her to start morning workouts!

[TrueColours]

Since when did breeding for color in the racehorse world have any merit to it at all. For that matter, same goes for any horse.

You are respectfully missing the point in a BIG way …

NO ONE is saying breed a piece of crap and make it a pretty colour and prehaps it can win some races or win some hunter classes. NO ONE is saying that colour is the first and most important criteria either

Some of us prefer producing that stellar hunter that can win in the best company - against the sea of bays and chestnuts - and we prefer to do it with a palomino or a buckskin

The same goes for race horses. The challenge is to produce a winning race horse that also happens to come in a colour different from anything else out there

So shoot us - we want to be different and we have different challenges we are undertaking and we are doing it with nice, athletic stock that didnt happen to have a race background so people are raising their eyebrows …

And the last time I checked, ALL of the well bred horses werent successful on the track either … and to be perfectly honest, I’d rather have a “lesser” horse with an “unknown” pedigree with a trainer that is taking a hands on, personal approach to him than a fabulously bred one in a stable of 100+ horses, where a more throw away approach is taken, and they are just a name or a number or that “yell’r horse” …

I firmly believe my buckskin & white Faux Finish mare could have been one helluva race horse, but as much as I wanted to try going that route with her, I opted to make her into a show horse instead. It doesnt means she COULDNT have run and run very very well - it simply means that I chose a different career path for her

THATS the difference between simply breeding for colour and screw the quality part of the equation and breeding a quality COLOURED athlete that could successfully head in several different directions and be a winner in all of them …

I, too, wish Dr Chowhan all the success in the world with this filly and it will be fun watching from the sidelines to see what she can do … … and as eventer4eva has said - like it or not, and agree with it or not - if 2 horses were lined up looking for new homes because they werent a success at the track and all things being equal - height, conformation and movement wise, the palomino is going to stand a far better chance of being sold quicker and for more money than the plain bay one would be

[farmgirl88]

dare to be different. if someone wants to breed for color- so be it. let them do it. To each their own. I personally dont have aproblem with it and i have seen faux finish and WHEW! Would i like to have that horse in my barn!!

No one is saying these horses couldnt run at the track- they very well could do that just as any other thoroughbred. Breeding for color could also give them new options off the track in terms of finding homes. There are plenty of people looking for a flashier, more “vibrant” looking horse to add to their broodmare, breeding, or show string- or even as a backyard horse.

Since when did anyone say colored breeders where not breeding for soundness and conformation? Ive seen plenty photos and all are wonderful examples, if not better examples, than what you see at many thoroughbred sales…with a lot more bone and substance to them, instead of toothpicks for legs.

Theres a lot more in the mind of breeders than just breeding for color to say that they did it. Claiming that of a breeder, without actually seeing or knowing of the stock- is just silly and insulting.

While im sure there are breeders out there who think they’re just going to make a quick buck and do it the cheap way- not all think that way and many believe in raising a flashy individual who has high hopes of finding a career after the track and be sound and conformationally correct at the same time

[farmgirl88]

[QUOTE=Dinah-do;3814199]
I do not care for palomino hunters. Way to hard to keep clean and just looks too western to me.[/QUOTE]

Thats just silly. I agree wtih you on the cleanliness part- thats why i dont own a grey and never will…but to say its to western? HA! Maybe if it looked western and cow-horsie like a QH, then i’d agree with you…but to say a color represents a discipline is ludacris.

Its like saying a chestnut warmblood in the hunter or Eq ring that ha sa big white blaze and 4 knee high stockings and a belly splotch looks too western because it looks like it belongs in the paint horse rings. You’re being senile. dont kid yourself.

[farmgirl88]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;3813226]
The whole rest of the horse world is geared towards beauty and color, they are called horse shows. The last thing we need in racing is an emphasis on color or anything else that is open to subjectivity. The way it stands right now I can have a horse that looks more like an aardvark but if he gets to the wire first, he wins. I would hate to see anything change that basic premise.[/QUOTE]

This is the problem i sometimes have with racing. Breeding shouldnt just be about who gets to the wire first. Your aardvark of a horse obviously isnt the best example of the breed, but he may get to the wire first, but how in God’s name are you going to keep a horse that looks like an aardvark sound?

breeding should be about looks. It should be about conformation. Breeding for conformation and then pedigree in terms of racing success should be where its at. soundness comes from great conformation and sound legs. Not something thats build like a car from many different cars…but its the fastest and thats all we care about.

You;d think breeders would want to produce something that has some sort of stamina in terms of soundness instead of something thats just going to get the job done and win some cash, even if its until the horse has some serious injury because of it.

[hitchinmygetalong]

The filly sold better than I expected. I thought she would sell poorly because she is out of an unraced mare who is by an unraced stallion. If she had been anything other than a “unique” color, she would have left the ring for very little money. That doesn’t make the fact that she sold “because she’s palomino” any more palatable.

This is a point that really bothers me. Color should be the LAST thing anyone considers when buying or breeding a horse. Performance is the key. Performance is the end product of breeding for correctness and a sound mind.

I hope the filly does well as a RACEHORSE for her new owner. I hope she earns the right to be bred to produce sound, sane, winning racehorses. But if she doesn’t work out on the track, then please don’t put her into a racehorse breeding program “just because she’s palomino.” There are far too many dud mares being bred as it is.