He may have meant that the more you micro manage the horse (with the bit), the less the horse will think for itself.
I think that is true. I also think that some sports want the horse to think for itself a bit (eventing) and some do not (western pleasure). Think about how most WP horses are trained…they are so afraid of going out of frame and getting bonked with the bit, that they hold a particular posture and go along like robots.
[QUOTE=Wirt;7631199]
Yes it is wrong. The statement is patently false. It is misleading and indefensible. It has caused uneducated riders to believe that if you are using you reins, you are cheating, and your horse isn’t thinking. he is an education system that is full of things like this that fill peoples heads with sayings and slogans that do not ask them to think.
The idea of communicating an idea in a very delicate and refined way through the reins is not examined. Instead, since reins are bad, it is suggested that its best to remove it from the equation of training, except to tell the horse he made a mistake.
How does this help someone use their reins better? You have poor hands, so just stop using them. This is education?[/QUOTE]
I think you’re going way overboard here.
I would say it’s not an awful quote to keep in mind. I’m personally bad about using my hands too much and not enough leg/seat!
[QUOTE=Wirt;7630656]
Is it awful? Yes. Is it harmless? I don’t think so.
It is not horsemanship. It’s circus. It’s Amway.
It is enormous content, with very little context and substance. [/QUOTE]
(Bolding mine)
Pyramid scheme aside, Amway makes some great laundry soap. Let’s not lump it in with the likes of the purely useless Parelli machine, ok? 
[QUOTE=mswillie;7631333]
I’m not a fan of Parelli under any circumstances. You can search Parelli on the boards and will find plenty of threads trashing him, his wife, and pretty much everything Parelli or “natural horsemanship” seven ways to Sunday.
The threads almost always deteriorate into train wrecks.
Maybe everyone is out of popcorn and wine today. Or I just need to wait a little longer. :)[/QUOTE]
Awwww… don’t be a wet blanket. It’s been a long time (it seems) since we’ve had a nice Parelli trainwreck thread. Remember - all that rein contact: all dressage folks are eeeeeeee-vil. Hmmmm… wonder if Parelli-ites ride in the Opportunity Classes at shows (where they WIN - being the only entries) and don’t use their reins at all.
The thing of it is…and I’m not trashing RFDTV with its amazing polka shows or other riveting programming…there’s a LOT of cray on there in media-land for the horse owner who “don’t need no trainer when I can just buy this here video.” SEVERAL “empires” have been built by those with accents, bags on sticks, majikal halters & leadlines…
For all you atheists (tongue in cheek so don’t get too overly wound up), those horse folk subscribing to Parelli and similar nonsense and crap are proof solid that there is a loving god…otherwise all these morons would be hurt way more often than they are. Or maybe it’s just not reported b/c they also subscribe to some sort of witch doctor medicine and are laid up in the bunk house with a peyote poultice on their most recent TBI.
It’s not that radical of an ideal/statement. A lot of horses trained in the western persuasion are given a “bump” with the reins to correct/adjust, then you immediately go back to a loose rein once they give you the correct answer.
With Parelli marketing towards a lot of beginners, I’d rather a beginner use not enough rein than too much.
sounds like someone has an ax to grind
Not a Parelli fan, in fact I think he’s an idiot, but that’s actually the smartest thing he’s ever said. I agree with it. Most riders use their hands way too much and yes that does make the horse go WTF and focus on it’s mouth instead of what it’s doing. Why would you think that’s crap?
[QUOTE=Rudy;7631548]
sounds like someone has an ax to grind[/QUOTE]
I think that most decent, knowledgeable horsemen do, when it comes to some of those people.
The Barney video did it for me.
I had been partly excusing them before as harmless, but not after that oh so enlightening video and a few others that surfaced.
[QUOTE=jen-s;7631394]
(Bolding mine)
Pyramid scheme aside, Amway makes some great laundry soap. Let’s not lump it in with the likes of the purely useless Parelli machine, ok? ;)[/QUOTE]
No doubt, made from failed Pepperoni hossies…
This was my all-time favourite Parelli-fail. It was taken from an internet radio podcast back in… oh, 2009 I think. The host was interviewing an up-and-coming instructor, not Pat himself. The interviewee (the student) asked Pat whether they should go to college and get a degree in business or equine science before/whilst moving through the Professional Program. This was the alleged conversation, as per the student’s recollection.
Pat: What is your favourite food?
Student: Pizza.
P: Well, how about we put some anchovies on it, and some icecream, and some toenail clippings…
S: What’s that got to do with my question?
P: The program is just like a pizza. It’s well-rounded, exactly the way it needs to be. The business degree and the equine science degree is just like the toenail clippings… just adds trash on it that it doesn’t need. Just follow the program [as I have intended it]
Student reported that she no longer planned to take those courses.
Fail.
I think Parelli is a snake oil salesman. I also think some people wade into the crazy pool themselves with how vehemently they hate Parelli.
I don’t see the Parelli-ittes doing any more damage than any other people who lack skills, supervision, or the sense to know they’re in over their heads. There will always be someone willing to make a buck off the clueless.
[QUOTE=Wirt;7630506]
Does it occur to anyone that Pat has built an empire on sticks and flags and ropes and arm waving and gestures, everything you can think of, to avoid actually using or teaching anyone how to properly use their hands and reins, while telling them that the reins are not important?
The only thing he uses the reins for is correction, as in “give him a speeding ticket”.
So basically, the reins are for punishment.
You mean to tell me to ignore hundreds of years of great horsemanship, developed on a connection to the horses mind and body,through the reins, among other things? His whole horsemanship is based around the idea that using the reins is cheating. That you are not really working with the horse’s mind when you use the reins, because you’re just pulling him around. It’s “mechanics and fear” versus “love language leaderhsip” Puke. So its no reins or bad reins? That’s our choice?
Is it possible that Pat has never really figured out what the reins are for, and how to use them? Meanwhile, thousands of people are mis-educated and very confused by a mustacheod bozo!.
end of rant.[/QUOTE]
I may be alone in my thinking but a good rider ( IMO) uses the reins and leg together to accomplish your purposes. It should also be done in such a way that you really don’t see it happening.
People who can ride w/o reins are few and the horses who are ridable w/o reins are even more rare. The problem is so called professionals who teach that it is possible for everyone. That is when the trouble starts.
[QUOTE=sublimequine;7631544]
It’s not that radical of an ideal/statement. A lot of horses trained in the western persuasion are given a “bump” with the reins to correct/adjust, then you immediately go back to a loose rein once they give you the correct answer.
With Parelli marketing towards a lot of beginners, I’d rather a beginner use not enough rein than too much.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, my first thought was completely the opposite of what the quote means because I’ve been around western pleasure trainers too long. In their case, they don’t WANT the horse to use its brain, and so they are constantly bumping it in the mouth if it so much as breathes wrong. They turn them into mindless zombies. I’ve even heard wp trainers refer to “taking one’s mind” from it.
So in Parelli’s world this quote means not to use the reins anymore than absolutely necessary. If those exact same words had come from a prominent western pleasure trainer, it would’ve meant to stay in the horse’s mouth/face until he submits and stops trying to think for himself.
I prefer the Parelli version, even though I think he’s a joke.
[QUOTE=copper1;7630781]
Saw an older woman get runaway with her horse. She had just returned from a 3 ay weekend of Parellii kool ade and was way into him. Horse ran into the indoor ring and she was flying around at a rate of knots and I was really afraid they would make a turn into the barn aisle which would have resulted in a major wreck. I ran up to see if I could help her and told her to pull on the reins to stop the horse but she kept saying she couldn’t. Horse finally runs out of gas and stops and I asked the lady why she couldn’t use the reins and she told me Parellii said you mustn’t use your reins! Really???[/QUOTE]
I ran into a woman from a neighboring barn while out riding in the woods. She wanted to ride with me a bit as her horse was really misbehaving. I rode behind her as her horse took off with her, as her reins were flopping all over the place. When the horse eventually stopped, I asked her why she didn’t pick up the reins ? She said the same thing, Parelli said not to pull on the reins.
I had never heard this before, and I was floored. I told her I was always told that if the horse is running off on you, is it better to spare his mouth and not pull on the reins, or get slammed into a tree headfirst ?? There are times when you want to leave them alone, but NOT when you are being run off with out in the woods.
[QUOTE=Faith;7631599]
Not a Parelli fan, in fact I think he’s an idiot, but that’s actually the smartest thing he’s ever said. I agree with it. Most riders use their hands way too much and yes that does make the horse go WTF and focus on it’s mouth instead of what it’s doing. Why would you think that’s crap?[/QUOTE]
I thought I had explained it clearly, but maybe not… It is not just the statement, but the system of teaching the statement implies.
Like I alluded to, and as another post here points out, the savvy club system does not want you to think. Just follow the program, Repeat what he says.
Would you take a college course without being able to check the validity of the information? Or the professor? Do you want to teach people just how to pass a test, so that they can get to the next level that only you can validate, rather than teach students to think for themselves, experiment, and ask questions? He just says, ‘remember’. As in, repeat after me. Follow the program. You will be fine.
So you keep the uneducated, uneducated. You take dummies, and keep them dummies. That is what I think is crap.
And the proof of this is in the hundreds of fans “doing Parelli” that I have come across that blindly imitate, and don’t have any real experience, are clueless, if not down right dangerous.
I don’t think it is harmless.
Not a Parelli fan, in fact I think he’s an idiot, but that’s actually the smartest thing he’s ever said. I agree with it. Most riders use their hands way too much and yes that does make the horse go WTF and focus on it’s mouth instead of what it’s doing. Why would you think that’s crap?
Because correct contact is critical to virtually all types of riding. A rider leaning (or God forbid jerking) on the bit is incorrect, but so one who throws away the reins. Reins are aides which need to be accepted by horses & used correctly by their riders.
Parelli doesn’t have even a basic understand of correct riding or horsemanship of any type and he is only able to scam the most ignorant among us. Sadly, those are the ones that need correct instruction the most.
And I agree that he is dangerous. Very dangerous indeed.
I agree that anytime anyone takes what one person says as the gospel truth and blindly follows that person even if his teachings fly in the face of other proven schools of thought and/or basic common sense, that is dangerous. It is irresponsible for a so-called trainer to put ignorant people at risk like that. And unfortunately, the truly clueless seem to be drawn to horses like a moth to a flame. Ignorance + Horses = Dangerous every time, and the ratio of ignorant people to knowledgeable people at a Parelli event is extremely high.
I see a slightly different version of this trainer preying on ignorant victim in western pleasure, where they’ve made the winning way of going so absurdly manufactured that only a trainer can teach (torment) the animal to perform it consistently. Therefore, clients must keep horses in full training just to walk/jog/lope around an arena. And not to mention the vets, chiros, accupunturists, and farriers that have to keep the poor animal sound enough…to walk. jog. lope. around an arena.
Dollar signs light up in these guys’ eyes when they see a clueless horse-lover with money to burn.
[QUOTE=RhythmNCruise;7631925]
I see a slightly different version of this trainer preying on ignorant victim in western pleasure, where they’ve made the winning way of going so absurdly manufactured that only a trainer can teach (torment) the animal to perform it consistently. Therefore, clients must keep horses in full training just to walk/jog/lope around an arena. And not to mention the vets, chiros, accupunturists, and farriers that have to keep the poor animal sound enough…to walk. jog. lope. around an arena.
Dollar signs light up in these guys’ eyes when they see a clueless horse-lover with money to burn.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. I am often perplexed/bewildered by the whole western show thing (apart from reining/cutting/team penning where they actually DO something) whether it’s AQHA, APHA or ApHC. Whoohah: Versatility: the horse can W/J/L under English or Western tack - moving, perhaps, slightly more quickly in English, and though it should be called Hunt Seat Pleasure, they call it HUS - though no open HUS horse ever moved like that. Then the exhibitor must have a separate horse for trail, a separate horse for Halter/Showmanship (?!?), a separate horse for Western Riding (tho’ sometimes the trail horse may double there), and so on. As you say, the $$$$$ roll in for those trainers lucky enough to corral some innocent.
It’s nice to see there are some things opening up that actually ask for something reasonable - like the new “Ranch Pleasure” - sort of a combined pleasure/trail/obstacle competition.
I remember watching that “America’s Horse” program, and some woman who had won a big amateur class at the big AQHA show was being interviewed, and her horse stood there like a zombie. When he hugged him around the neck, he didn’t move ONE INCH or react at all. He’d just checked out. Sigh. The contrast with, say, even high level Pony Clubbers at their national rallies and their obvious love of their horses as something more than a prestige-generating machine (those ads! Congrats to soandso for winning four different versions of western pleasure, etc…)
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7631221]
You learn what you hear - (as in the older lady being run away with) as a little kid in Pony Club we changed horses in a lesson. The one I got ran away with me in a polo field. My Dad had read Black Beauty to me and his mouth hurt from the bit, so I was afraid to pull on the reins… instructor was yelling at me to pull on the reins and lean back.[/QUOTE]
“Newish” rider here.
This is SO true. During one of my earliest lessons, I pulled TOO hard once and got chewed out for it. I was a total beginner and didn’t know any better, but it stuck with me. Up until this week (almost two years later), I’ve been TERRIFIED of using my reins, even when it’s been appropriate.
I don’t know anything about Mr. Parelli, but it just goes to show how powerful words can be. Instructors & coaches need to take the time to clarify what they mean because so often the student will take things TOO literally.
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