Didn’t Parelli once claim that if you have a well trained horse you have no need for a helmet? If that’s accurate, the man is an idiot no matter what else he says, if it’s not… well, that’d be good to know so I stop thinking of him as an idiot.
If Phillipe Karl said, “The more you use the reins the less they use their brains” would you be so up in arms. I don’t know Parelli from a hole in the ground, but the sentiment is sound. I ride dressage.
Paula
[QUOTE=Nisi;7631993]
Didn’t Parelli once claim that if you have a well trained horse you have no need for a helmet? If that’s accurate, the man is an idiot no matter what else he says, if it’s not… well, that’d be good to know so I stop thinking of him as an idiot.[/QUOTE]
Oh, don’t do anything hasty. :lol: He is indeed an idiot. Google the Barney video, the Catwalk video, etc, if you have any lingering doubts.
Parelli did claim that one didn’t need helmets if only one bought the kool-aid and achieved whatever alliterative nonsense they were pushing at the time - leadership, something, I don’t know. Anyway now they’ve backed off a little bit to say they think children should always wear them and that they support adults wearing whatever makes them feel safe.
Me, I’d feel safe with a big old bag of Parelli Repellant. Anybody know where I can get some?
Y’all DO realize you’re up against a “Belief System” here, right?
May as well go spit in the ocean . . . :lol:
[QUOTE=Sandy M;7631945]
Yeah. I am often perplexed/bewildered by the whole western show thing (apart from reining/cutting/team penning where they actually DO something) whether it’s AQHA, APHA or ApHC. Whoohah: Versatility: the horse can W/J/L under English or Western tack - moving, perhaps, slightly more quickly in English, and though it should be called Hunt Seat Pleasure, they call it HUS - though no open HUS horse ever moved like that. Then the exhibitor must have a separate horse for trail, a separate horse for Halter/Showmanship (?!?), a separate horse for Western Riding (tho’ sometimes the trail horse may double there), and so on. As you say, the $$$$$ roll in for those trainers lucky enough to corral some innocent.
It’s nice to see there are some things opening up that actually ask for something reasonable - like the new “Ranch Pleasure” - sort of a combined pleasure/trail/obstacle competition.
I remember watching that “America’s Horse” program, and some woman who had won a big amateur class at the big AQHA show was being interviewed, and her horse stood there like a zombie. When he hugged him around the neck, he didn’t move ONE INCH or react at all. He’d just checked out. Sigh. The contrast with, say, even high level Pony Clubbers at their national rallies and their obvious love of their horses as something more than a prestige-generating machine (those ads! Congrats to soandso for winning four different versions of western pleasure, etc…)[/QUOTE]
Those ads! They’re worse than ever! Especially the youth riders. Girls glammed out in make-up and provocative clothing take up 3/4 of the full-page ad with a slight hint of…oh! looky there! The preteen beauty queen wannabe has a horse! Who’d a thought?! LOL
I showed AQHA for years in HUS and Eq. Showed one at Congress (finalists), and raised another, trained him myself, and showed him enough to get our ROM. But I was always the “peculiar” one (yes, I was called that) because I did weird things like turn my horses out (gasp!), feed them treats (no!), and refused to drug them, tie them for hours at a time, and deaden their tails (outrageous!).
I’m glad to be away from that world. So much bad horsemanship that is just accepted and even touted as good. I guess that’s true everywhere though. From backyard Parelli wannabes to World Champion western pleasure riders. Or my new least favorite, big name and wannabe big name reiners. They’re closing in on the western pleasure guys for title if Most Abusive Training Methods. They definitely don’t adhere to Parelli’s quote!
Not a Parelli fan in any way shape or form but that is perhaps on of the few things he has said that does make sense. Anyone here read Valdemar Littauer and his method for training jumpers? Jumping is initially taught on the lunge letting the horse find it’s own balance and setting itself up for the jump. His method for riding concentrates on the rider staying out of the way or the horse and being in balance with it. I trained my first horse totally Littauer. What I got was horse who only needed to be pointed to the next fence or line then my job was to just stay in two point and out of her way till it was time to point her to the next fence again. She figured out on her own how to find the spot and if she needed to lengthen or shorten her stride. In short I was using the reins less and she was using her brains more.
I remember sometime on here someone put a Calvary video showing horses going over a series of fences. One line of horses going in one direction the other going in the other direction the riders with their hands on their hips. You can’t do that if you have to direct every stride of your horse with the reins.
[QUOTE=Paks;7632436]
Not a Parelli fan in any way shape or form but that is perhaps on of the few things he has said that does make sense. Anyone here read Valdemar Littauer and his method for training jumpers? Jumping is initially taught on the lunge letting the horse find it’s own balance and setting itself up for the jump. His method for riding concentrates on the rider staying out of the way or the horse and being in balance with it. I trained my first horse totally Littauer. What I got was horse who only needed to be pointed to the next fence or line then my job was to just stay in two point and out of her way till it was time to point her to the next fence again. She figured out on her own how to find the spot and if she needed to lengthen or shorten her stride. In short I was using the reins less and she was using her brains more.
I remember sometime on here someone put a Calvary video showing horses going over a series of fences. One line of horses going in one direction the other going in the other direction the riders with their hands on their hips. You can’t do that if you have to direct every stride of your horse with the reins.[/QUOTE]
The Cavalry School taught recruits balance and seat by having them ride over trotting poles in an “alley” formed by two fences. The trooper was required to run through the normal suppling exercises (reins on the neck) while riding the poles, then 18" fences, and ultimately 30" fences.
The Army was also VERY big on “accord of the aids.” Military riding requires riding “in contact” because it’s done one handed and it requires quick and precise response from the horse. The hand is critical at some times with the leg and seat critical at other times. The trooper must be well trained in the use of each aid AND well trained in deciding which aid will be “primary” and the sequence of use. In this sense Parelli is right that if you always default to the hand you’ve missed the point. He’s wrong, and dangerously so, in the context in which he uses the observation.
G.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;7632483]
The Cavalry School taught recruits balance and seat by having them ride over trotting poles in an “alley” formed by two fences. The trooper was required to run through the normal suppling exercises (reins on the neck) while riding the poles, then 18" fences, and ultimately 30" fences.
The Army was also VERY big on “accord of the aids.” Military riding requires riding “in contact” because it’s done one handed and it requires quick and precise response from the horse. The hand is critical at some times with the leg and seat critical at other times. The trooper must be well trained in the use of each aid AND well trained in deciding which aid will be “primary” and the sequence of use. In this sense Parelli is right that if you always default to the hand you’ve missed the point. He’s wrong, and dangerously so, in the context in which he uses the observation.
G.[/QUOTE]
Well Littauer was a US Calvary instructor and his books relate to his experience. I guess however, you know more than he did about what and how he taught.
[QUOTE=Paks;7632495]
Well Littauer was a US Calvary instructor and his books relate to his experience. I guess however, you know more than he did about what and how he taught.[/QUOTE]
I’ve never read Littauer. I have read, and follow in my own riding, the Cavalry School text book (available here for about $20 http://www.uscavalry.org/shop/index.php/books/horses/horsemanship-volume-i ).
I’ve also got a training film from the Cavalry School demonstrating the “jumping alley” technique.
The point is that to be an effective rider your got to be ready to conform your actions to where you are and what your doing at any one time.
Note that the recruit’s horse was likely an “old trooper” that was well trained but also “wise” and likely to “challenge” the recruit. That’s how boot camp was in those days (and even today, for the most part but without the horses 
).
G.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7631221]
You learn what you hear - (as in the older lady being run away with) as a little kid in Pony Club we changed horses in a lesson. The one I got ran away with me in a polo field. My Dad had read Black Beauty to me and his mouth hurt from the bit, so I was afraid to pull on the reins… instructor was yelling at me to pull on the reins and lean back.[/QUOTE]
Had a lesson student one time like this. We were in the ring and school horse was troting. Student would not pull on the reins to slow to the walk ( I had to step in the horses line so he stoped). She had also read where the bit ‘hurts’ the horses mouth.
I have seen plenty of riders that cannot even ride on a loose rein.
[QUOTE=Paks;7632495]
Well Littauer was a US Calvary instructor and his books relate to his experience. I guess however, you know more than he did about what and how he taught.[/QUOTE]
Actually, Capt Littauer was Russian Cavalry before coming to this country in 1921. Offhand I don’t know that he was ever a US Cavalry instructor or I could have forgotten! He did start a riding club in NYC. I had the pleasure of riding in a couple of his clinics while in college. Everyone would certainly benefit from reading his books.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;7632483]
The Cavalry School taught recruits balance and seat by having them ride over trotting poles in an “alley” formed by two fences. The trooper was required to run through the normal suppling exercises (reins on the neck) while riding the poles, then 18" fences, and ultimately 30" fences.
The Army was also VERY big on “accord of the aids.” Military riding requires riding “in contact” because it’s done one handed and it requires quick and precise response from the horse. The hand is critical at some times with the leg and seat critical at other times. The trooper must be well trained in the use of each aid AND well trained in deciding which aid will be “primary” and the sequence of use. In this sense Parelli is right that if you always default to the hand you’ve missed the point. He’s wrong, and dangerously so, in the context in which he uses the observation.
G.[/QUOTE]
That’s what I’m saying.
And you could simply say, don’t balance by using the reins, or, don’t use the reins to hang on. That is called learning to ride with an independent seat. A seat working independently of the hands, as in following the movements of the horse, and not interfering with his balance by hanging on his head. That is easy to understand, and a very basic tenet of riding skills that have been around a lot longer than PP.
But Pat changes the emphasis from balance and following the horse with your seat, to trying to teach people to train their horse without the use of the reins. Thus, the more you use them, the less the horse can think, which is patently false. If you examine the entire structure of his methods, that is what it is based on. You too can ride bridle less. That seems to be the goal of it.
True, Vladimir Littauer was a product of the Russian Cavalry school under the Czar before WWI, after which he emigrated to the greater New York area and opened a now-famous riding school, well-known as one of the fountainheads of what has become “the American Balanced Seat.” His books about “forward riding” have aged extremely well; I still consult them on a regular basis now that, after many years, I’ve become disillusioned with what “dressage” has become. Back to my roots! 
Agree 100% that the old U.S. Cavalry Manual (and PLEASE, folks, it is “cavalry,” not Calvary, the place Christ was crucified!) is one of the best sources for proven horsemanship information yet to be found on Earth. This was not the guru-of-the-moment’s pet hypothesis–it was WHAT WORKED, over many years, with large groups of mostly-OK types of horses with run of the mill riders as opposed to the specially talented. You really can’t go wrong using these methods.
Agree w/Lady E, though I would also say that I don’t think Xenophon has been significantly improved upon. Which is why I laugh so often when today’s video trainers claim some ‘new idea’ that’s actually a couple of thousand years old. Oh, here, I just found a link to an annotated on line version, really, everyone should read it. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1176/1176-h/1176-h.htm
[QUOTE=Faith;7631599]
Most riders use their hands way too much and yes that does make the horse go WTF and focus on it’s mouth instead of what it’s doing. Why would you think that’s crap?[/QUOTE]
So for a dressage horse, the rider should leave the reins alone and let the horse perform the test by himself- perhaps with the help of a reader?
[QUOTE=alicen;7634752]
So for a dressage horse, the rider should leave the reins alone and let the horse perform the test by himself- perhaps with the help of a reader?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=saultgirl;7634924]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc8Ky7T26Dc[/QUOTE]
Sorry, not a very good example of dressage.
Post it on the dressage forum for a critique of why.
I do think that someone, somewhere will have presented a set of movements truly correct without a bridle, just not very common.
When you work without a bridle, generally the performance deteriorates the longer you go along, horses tend to get strung out.
That is why that is reserved for demonstrations/free styles and not that much expected of those.
[QUOTE=Bluey;7634966]
Sorry, not a very good example of dressage.
Post it on the dressage forum for a critique of why.
I do think that someone, somewhere will have presented a set of movements truly correct without a bridle, just not very common.
When you work without a bridle, generally the performance deteriorates the longer you go along, horses tend to get strung out.
That is why that is reserved for demonstrations/free styles and not that much expected of those.[/QUOTE]
She is using full contact with reins. They are just around his neck, instead of attached to a bit. It appears that she is holding on to him pretty strongly too. So it kind of begs the question. Is this horse thinking less because she is using reins?
I do not understand this fascination with bridless riding anyway. One reason may be because we are not seeing great examples of riding with a bridle. PP certainly can’t show us.
[QUOTE=saultgirl;7634924]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc8Ky7T26Dc[/QUOTE]
If that is the best exemple you could find… irk.
And still, this horse was trained with a bridle; see this trainer’s other videos.
