This
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That first video is how I imagined fine riding would proceed, the horse light in hand, super responsive, with its hooves âtouchingâ the ground lightly.
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Agreed. What is interesting is that those are videos of US Cavalry riders, riding the cavalry remount horses. The US Cavalry had a lot of its tradition in the French riding tradition, which uses light horses.
The second video is of Willi Schultheis riding in the German mannerâŠwhich I found to be a heavier style.
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I donât necessarily agree that gaits should not be evaluated in dressage. It is a hallmark of good dressage training; quality gaits come together when all the other pieces are in place. I think it would be more beneficial to address how gaits are accessed - gait quality should not be manufactured, so to speak; it should be the result of good training. Leg flinging and mismatched fronts are obviously not the product of quality dressage.
100+ years ago, the horse was generally a family horse to be used for transport and farm work. We now have the luxury of breeding horses specifically for sport. I think this had been a slippery slope because on one hand, we do have horses that are bred to be better equipped for collection, lateral ability, etc., but on the other hand, people are producing such extravagant movers that their gait purity, rideability, (etc) is suffering. Combine that with abusive training tactics and we get the horses we have now. I think we can have both⊠horses more suitable for dressage without being giraffes as well as correct and ethical training.
Iâm still convinced it mostly comes back to judging. What wins in the show ring generally drives breeding and training.
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Is it possible that some purpose bred horses have been purpose bred for the wrong attribute? Meaning they were bred for attributes that might be desired in a current trend which is not exactly what should be seen like a passagey trot? (Maybe there are other similar things too)
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That is quite wrong.
Having shown many 7 movers (most of whom would be seen as a 6 mover before dressage training), you could hypothetically score a 10 on movements that show training rather than Gaits. For instance, a halt on centerline. Or turn on the haunches/walk pirouette.
You can also score very high scores in other ways⊠If you have absolutely perfect geometry, seamless transitions, and show correct basics. You can score eights and nines, even if the horse is topped out at scoring a seven on gaits.
With lovely transitions, perfect, geometry, swing, correct, basics, etc. you could get an eight on every single score on the test. Well, maybe not the free walk. But even there the transitions into an out of the free walk are counted in and if you have those transitions perfect, I bet you could get an eight because the judge would be so happy to see a normal horse being ridden so well.
Getting a really high score on a school horse is very satisfying. Especially when he scores higher than most of the horses in the class who cost more than 10 times he did. Now, of course, if someone with an eight mover comes in, and shows all of the wonderfulness that your seven mover shows, theyâre going to score higher than you. So what? Taken in context, your wonderful high score on your less than Olympic horse is still an incredibly wonderful training accomplishment and should be something to be proud of.
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Oh, for sure, but what gets me is how much of it is training. Take Totilas, for example. He was actually a very nice, lovely mover when young. His training essentially turned him into a totally different animal.
One of the things I struggle with when looking for dressage stallions is being able to see their natural movement. You only see the artificial movement produced by a very influential rider. There is so much manufacturing with dressage. To think that a stallion owner wonât show the public a horseâs natural way of going is very sad and backwards for breeding.
ETA/ I was replying to @Knights_Mom but I canât figure out how to fix who I am replying to.
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This is my understanding as well.
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Agreed. I have scored over 6 on a 6 mover many times because of what you are saying.
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That must be a bit of a bear to slosh through when trying to choose a stallion.
Poor Totilas. I know people think of him and still go ooh and aah as they breed to him and his sons. I always just felt bad for him.
I have to figure out how heavily I will show my guy (gelding) when itâs time. I really like him and Iâm not concerned with selling his seed being heâs a gelding so I just want to keep him mostly local to a 5 state, 4 hour drive max. Most trips being an hour or less. 4 hours gets me to Virginia going south, middle PA going west, and almost Boston going north. I want him to feel good and healthy and happy in his job like he is now.
Once the good will of the horse is gone, it may be gone forever.
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100 years ago, horses had jobs. A current dressage horse has no job. It is a bred to be a 1000lb poodle show animal judged by some âarbitraryâ standard.
The horses in the videos I showed up thread would probably score very low today. Why? Because the standards have changed to place gaits high in the evaluation. I am going to look up what was taught in my L-judgeâs handouts.
In competitions where there is actual functional ability, the value of the gaits are judged by how well can a horse do its job.
Ever see polo? You talk about transitions from collection to extension (eg., gallop) watch a polo pony. Disclaimer, I am not a fan of all the rigging polo players put on their mounts, but if a horse canât collect itself, whatever bits and tiedowns wonât get it to maneuver in close quarters.
Working EquitationâŠthe goal is to mimic what a working horse has to deal with in a cattle ranch (the team WE competition has cattle). Gaits only come in for how well does the horse manage the obstacles (though yes, there is a dressage test component.)
In bullfighting, the riderâs life depends on his horseâs ability to collect. The gaits there are judged for their efficiency and the horseâs ability to get out of harmâs way.
In dressage??? There is no âpurposeâ thus the focus on gaits.
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Keep in mind, your â6â mover might have an â7.5â trot, but a 5.5 canter, so your scores may vary for the different gait, but if quality of movement is the first thing the judge is supposed to consider, then accuracy should not have moved your score beyond the quality of gait scoreâŠa mistake novice judges sometimes make. I donât agree with it, and I think âQualityâ should be replaced with âCorrectnessâ, but that is not the current system.
The Arabian world had the scandal a few months back of a clearly unsound mare getting reserve champion in halter at a big showâŠthe horse couldnât put its one front leg down properly, but the person leading her was a big shot trainer. The unsoundness was in no way subtle, but it seems horse sports across the board are devolving into being more about the money and the names. (in non-subjective sports like Show jumping, it is still a problem, with officials and owners looking the other way far too often with the big name riders).
The industry is in a downward spiral but the associations globally seem reluctant to change, and trainers canât afford to not play the game in a way that keeps them paying the bills.
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The purpose was to evaluate the training of the horse. Which is why a top horse who canât halt should be majorly dinged.
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Interesting how the only Toto get that are producing even a modicum of the olâ Tota Razzle Dazzle⊠are Galâs. You could be forgiven for wondering if ⊠just mayyybbbbeeeeeee⊠there is a common denominator. (And it isnât the taddiesâŠ)
Just FTR: I loved Totilas. The videos of him in his retirement ridden by Rathâs mum were really lovely.
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I have a Toto Jr. offspring and he has the most amazing free shoulder. His gaits are 8 or maybe higher now that his withers are coming up and he has a foot of overtrack in the walk. However he does not have that knee snap. That would have had to be trained. Many of our top riders have a Totilas or Toto Jr offspring in their barn.
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Maybe your current view on dressage is convoluting what you think a dressage bred horse is for. Horses are absolutely bred for dressage in terms of traits that lend towards dressage movements - collectibility, lateral ability, quality of gaits, trainability, etc. An arbitrary show standard doesnât negate this.
I also loved Totilas. He gave 150 percent every time and riders took advantage of that.
I also love Toto Jr. I have a Totilas grandson as well. You are right about the shoulder. What is the damline on your Toto Jr?
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The operative word in your statement is âwas.â As in past tense.
The equestrian tradition for the Olympics were rooted in the cavalry. The first equestrian competition was in 1900 and equestrian competitions have been included in the modern Olympics since 1912.
Until after WWII only military officers could compete, no civilians. The job of those horses was to take soldiers to war. Based on what we periodically see in the GP arena, these âhighly trainedâ horses we see today probably would not take a soldier to war.
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I stand by my statement that the breeders are breeding for what wins in the show ring.
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