Parra and Helgstrand

[MsM]

Unfortunately, the “gaits question” has been around and unresolved for many years. I remember talking with Dr Max Gawhyler back in the 1980s! He was especially concerned about the scoring at the lower levels where there were not enough trained movements to overcome average gaits. And that the idea of good gaits was being distorted and rewarding flashy but incorrect gaits. This was when warmbloods were first being seen in lower level tests and a lot of them were not correct as ridden by their ammy owners, but the mathematics of the judging system and the test (along with a certain amount of awe from younger judges) let to them scoring well.

I audited an L program and was interested to see that they do start with the gaits score. I would have less of a problem with this if it was really only correctness of gaits, but it seems more about scope and “brilliance”.

Interesting that the training scale is not really the basis for the judging protocol. I would much rather have the judge starting with a score for rhythm and suppleness!

I also wonder if USDF or FEI have ever analyzed the mathematics of the test. As I teacher, I knew it was all too easy to make a test that did not fairly reward the students with the best grasp of the material. Perhaps the USDF could look into that and tweaking at least the coefficients or scores for transitions etc.

The difficulty in rewarding, for example, big but tense gaits at the lower levels is not just that the correct but smaller-moving horse has trouble competing; it is that the flashy horse can continue on while missing some basics until they find trouble at the higher levels.

[sascha]

@Cowgirl

Totilas Age 5

This linke is to a video of Totilas as a 5 year old at Verden. I can see all of the gaits in him that he later showed at grand prix.

Total aside, LOVE his little halts and down transitions, “I’m an aeroplane lookit me effortlessly fly through the air … ah, what? Landing? Ok, I can do this! … OOPS! You ok, I don’t know how to land myself yet.”

[pluvinel]

@MsM

I also wonder if USDF or FEI have ever analyzed the mathematics of the test. As I teacher, I knew it was all too easy to make a test that did not fairly reward the students with the best grasp of the material. Perhaps the USDF could look into that and tweaking at least the coefficients or scores for transitions etc.

This protocol is called “test validation.” It is used to determine if a test reflects the standard being evaluated. It is a field of statistics that has been proposed before…oh, maybe 20 years ago. There is no interest in applying science to dressage test scoring.
Test validity - Wikipedia
Test validation - Assessment Systems

It used to be on the internet, but I cannot find it anymore. During one of the past Olympics a statistician from a statistics software company got interested in equestrian and started to review dressage scores. He concluded that statistically one could not differentiate between the first 3 or 5 (can’t recall) placings. Eg., the margin of error said that those riders were in a tie for first place.

[DownYonder]

My memory isn’t what it used to be - but was the statistician’s name David Strickland (or something like that)?

[pluvinel]

@DownYonder

My memory isn’t what it used to be - but was the statistician’s name David Strickland (or something like that)?

Don’t get me started on Stickland. He is/was a physicist who was trying to reinvent statistical methodology. He did not understand the difference between precision and accuracy until it was pointed out to him.

[Cowgirl]

We used to have Dr. Max regularly teach private clinics at our barn in the early 2000s! What a wonderful human, truly wanting the best for the horses.

You are spot on that if the horses with the gaits are being scored on their gaits only, they will miss truly learning certain basics that may affect them later on. More importantly, allowing them to skip these basics encourages the use of artificial devices to later train these things because training is not a true progression.

One of my two youngsters is and always have been very uphill. He carries himself in an FEI frame. He must be trained to stretch down and out to the bit in a trianing level type of frame so that he can develop the undersling muscles needed to carry a rider in a grand prix frame. The colt starter that had him for almost 3 months rode him up all the time and off his feet. I asked her to try and get him to stretch down but she did not and now he has a sore back. Even these extremely uphill horses need to go through the progression of training to develop strength in the proper areas. It is the same for all horses. This is why I don’t think they should reward a horse at training level going in a grand prix frame. The winner of the training level class should look like a training level horse. Rewarding the horses in that FEI frame is encouraging the wrong things.

[DownYonder]

Ah, gotcha. That was the only name my (faulty) memory could come up with!

[sascha]

@Cowgirl

The winner of the training level class should look like a training level horse. Rewarding the horses in that FEI frame is encouraging the wrong things.

This, this and more of this. I am old enough to remember when riding a horse in a baby class (equivalent of training level) and showing it ‘up’ in front at all would earn major penalties and a whole page FULL of notes about how wrong you were for riding your young horse that way. And then it all changed and training-level frames were (it feels like) never to be seen again, let alone winning in the classes appropriate to their level.

[Helicon]

It is somewhat true that the gaits form the base for each test score. However the reason for this is that correct training and riding improve the gaits. That’s actually what I have always loved about dressage. I think it is the essence of dressage - the athletic development of the horse.

Now there are other ways to get great movement. Breeders have responded by producing better and better movers. Better athletes is generally a good thing - but neurologic and hyperelastic horses are a tragic step in the wrong direction.

And some trainers have apparently resorted to artificial means, and tragically, abuse.

But what makes the gaits beautiful ? Extreme movement seems to be the fashion now. The general public goes gaga for the wow factor - think of the Blue Hors Matine effect. Everdale has now demonstrated that a superhorse doesn’t even have to be through to be spectacular, and to execute the movements effortlessly.

Also, back to your question, there are some movements like halt, walk pirouettes*, rein back which are not gait dependent. *unless your horse paces, but that is a fundamental issue.

[Cowgirl]

But it’s the Everdale judging that devolves dressage into a series of circus tricks.

[Helicon]

I am not sure if COTH allows this, but I am hoping they will.

I started a petition to the USEF to change its mission to allow it to take action against horse abusers regardless of where the abuse happens, so we don’t have another Parra situation.

Here is the link (you do not have to donate Change.org who is hosting the petition). Lets make a difference for the horses!

Sign the Petition

[Mondo]

My reply is on the other thread.

[anonevent]

Even throwing empathy aside, I’ll never understand wanting to cause pain, injury, or fear in a horse all I do is try to prevent my horse from getting hurt. It’s so backwards.

[Bogey2]

The 2024 USDF guide has a Parra ad on the first page. Must have gone to print before the last incident?

[SBrentnall]

Yes, print deadlines are typically at least 2-3 months ahead of publication dates.

[barnesthenoble]

Under the circumstances, that seems to me like something that would warrant halting production and delaying the guide…but, who am I kidding. Expecting a response anything short of bumbling and incompetent from USEF/USDF is apparently setting the bar too high.

[Knights_Mom]

I agree with you.

[SBrentnall]

But is that fair to all the other advertisers who expected ads to run in publications on certain dates?

[Badger]

George Willian’s posted on FB about this yesterday:

“ George Williams is with Leslie Morse

“Thank you Leslie for bringing this to my attention. I certainly understand how and why people are upset. It is important to keep in mind that the 2024 USDF Member Guide was delivered with the November/December 2023 issue of USDF Connection which should have hit mailboxes late October 2023. However, new members do still receive one upon joining USDF. You can be sure that the USDF will look at how to best address this matter.”