[QUOTE=Silk;2662870]
Womanizing homophobe is how I remembered him in the '70’s. Very free with his whip and spur, as seen in warm up rings. Not the best rider I saw (to put it mildly)[/QUOTE]
And now we are accusing him becasue he’s a womanizer? or a bad rider?
His relationship skills, or even those of his own riding ability are not in question…I’m not certain he professes to be exceptionally great at either.
Anthem, how many things could have gone through his mind? I think the word “money” was the key thought process there, what else could it have been? (Just curious as to what YOU think)?
Anthem, no one is “accusing” him… He has already been found GUILTY in a court of law! Your logic is amazing!
Why do poeople like PV stay in the horse trade?. Because of people like Anthem35 who are using blinkers and just don’t want to see or are just as unscrupulous as PV himself.
:no: Sorry, he might be a good trainer, but the term ‘Horseman’ is an honor I will never bestow on that man.
I’m wondering if Anthem ever asked him why? I would love to hear that version…
[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;2662884]
Anthem, no one is “accusing” him… He has already been found GUILTY in a court of law! Your logic is amazing![/QUOTE]
mmmm. I am very aware of his legal status.
I would just prefer the ‘accusations’ didn’t extend to his relationships, finances, or the quality of the morals of his students.
I’m quite logic, and very rational. I just ask that we all fight fairly.
Should the reason really matter?
Are you kidding me?
[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;2662908]
I’m wondering if Anthem ever asked him why? I would love to hear that version…[/QUOTE]
Now if I shared my experiences with you, that would be secondhand information to you, would it not? I would suggest if you do care to know the answer to “why”, you ask him yourself…
I am satisfied with my own understanding of what happened, and why.
And that, with my own beliefs in human error, and forgiveness, have chosen to ride with AWF.
With that, I am off to the florist. I have a wedding to plan. 
I’m wondering if Anthem could “forgive” if it was her horse that was killed…
I’m not PV supporter by any means, but I must admit, reading this interesting thread (interesting not because of its subject matter, but because of the responses and what they imply about us), one thing does keep crossing my mind: child abusers, rapists and murderers in our society. I suppose one could argue that the same “problem” exists for PV as exists for registered child abusers: if they are known, they never get their lives back, do they? The whole idea of remorse and rehabilitation goes out the window for them–and for PV here, for many.
Rambling a bit, but it makes me also wonder about the families of such criminals, especially convicted rapists, murderers and child abusers. Somehow, they, too go on, don’t they? Such criminals ARE released, ARE allowed to continue their lives…yes? No, not all are, but quite a few. Indeed, aren’t there/wasn’t there convicted child molesters on the circuit? Who was that announcer villified here way back when?
In a way, I can see how some feel the need to put PVs crime in perspective–same with Vick, I suppose. Indeed, stretching the devil’s advocate arguments even further, consider the Amish and their attitudes toward animals. There are cultural and religious reasons for what we call animal abuse. Using those–and looking at PV’s situation from an acultural perspective–one can almost (and I did say "almost) rationalize it as an act based on justified need. Kill the horse to save yourself. It’s only a horse. A dumb animal. Not one of God’s blessed. Whatever. We can’t deny that there ARE societies which hold such views, yes? Indeed, we even manage to justify heinous killing in our own society–through a little thing called “war.”
All that said, my assumption is that PV did it because of greed, first and foremost, which is not the same in my mind as the psychological sickness that might create a rapist or child molester or some murderers. I do think greed can explain how a person can truly care for horses and still kill one, if the need was great enough. I can see how to save oneself, one might sacrifice something one loved–and “save oneself” is defined by the user, not the viewer, of course. [I keep thinking, in an inappropriately humorous way, that maybe the mob was after him or something…]
Now, that said, for all we know there was more than just greed behind it: he needed money–what would have happened to him if he didn’t get the money [lost his business, his house, his left pinky]? We don’t really know, do we? We don’t really know how great the need. Could it have been great enough to justify the immoral act? What would have made it great enough? What is there in the background of a murderer here or there that made his or her need great enough to kill his wife or her husband for her or his insurance money? Is there any excuse for them? And what if it wasn’t greed, but “discomfort” of some kind (like hating the man/woman, or being abused by that person)?
Meanwhile, what happens to them when they return to society?
IMO, when society allows their return, their penance is to live QUIET lives thereafter. They probably avoid the relatives of their victims, live in a different part of the country, and stay clear of whatever lifestyle or activities might bring them in contact with those who know their pasts. Indeed, one might even say that they probably have to forsake the very things they killed to have…
And I think that that is what riles folks the most with PV. He isn’t being QUIET, he hasn’t gone away and he hasn’t avoided that which he abused. In sum, he hasn’t paid the expected penance of relinguishing what he acted cruelly to retain…and that’s what we can’t get over here. Whatever happened to George Lindemann, Jr., for example?
[QUOTE=anthem35;2662843]
I have just one question for you…
Have YOU ever asked Paul to explain the story as to why this happened? Is your assumptions that the reason was financial your own idea based on what you’ve read, or heard, thirdhand?
I do very much respect anyone for standing up and supporting what they believe in…provided, its a well informed opinion, and it is their own.
Its hard to consider a party’s platform when its based on third party information, and supported by a band of disciples who resort to name calling and personal attacks…
Please, lets keep this discussion based on firsthand knowledge of the accused, as well as limiting personal attacks to those we are acquainted with personally…[/QUOTE]
You mean you actually believe there might have been a justifiable reason to electrocute a horse and try to fraudulently collect the insurance on it??? Just what reason do you expect him to give that would make us all go “AHHH, OK. I didn’t realize that. I understand why you did it, and would have done the same thing”?
There is nothing he could say to justify it. Period.
Anthem, would you take dog obedience training classes from Michael Vick, if you were into obedience training? If not, why not?
The “why’s” in this case dont really matter, the fact is that PV did it, and to me it is an unforgivable act of cruelty and greed… You can sugarcoat it anyway that makes it easier for you to sleep at night… doesnt hold water with most horseman that have an ounce of morals. Every killer has his reasons, doesnt make them right, and the followers that can forgive usually have a warped sense of reality.
[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;2662938]
I’m wondering if Anthem could “forgive” if it was her horse that was killed…[/QUOTE]
Ofcourse she would,everybody needs a 10th chance;)
[QUOTE=dutchmike;2662951]
Ofcourse she would,everybody needs a 10th chance;)[/QUOTE]
You know, I’m just one of thise people who can accept people for all their mistakes, and move on.
That does not mean I am condoning it, or supporting it.
And yes, if it was my horse, I am sure I would feel differently.
But at this point, I just see a man who F@#$^ed up…BIG…and who actually IS SORRY…and HAS been paying the price for his crime, and will be until the end of time, who has asked for the chance to make amends.
Try very hard to leave your personal attacks on me out of this. Most people who know think I’m actually quite nice.
Excellent post, pwynnorman…there is a lot of knee-jerking whenever PV’s name is mentioned, on both sides of the issue. How refreshing to see that at least some can take a step back and consider the matter impassionately.
Anthem, I feel like those that pay him for his services are supporting and condoning his past behaviour… you are accepting him as a horseman, and paying for his services, thus keeping him in the horse business… Which IMO he doesnt deserve to be in.
Forgiveness is okay in some circumstances, (not this one… just my opinion) and I wonder if he is truly sorry, or just truly sorry that he got caught!
I’m sure your a nice person, I’m not questioning that… the point that others have made is the perception you give when riding with someone who has been found guilty of such crimes as this.
I have been a professional in the TB world for years… and choose not to associate or do business with others that have been less than honorable in their practices relating to horses… we actually turned down a training job for the top owner in the country… who has/had a reputation for not doing what is best for his horses… winnning means alot, but it’s not everything.
Um, I don’t think there were convictions (or even allegations) of horses being killed against the owner’s wishes.
This I think, is interesting and true. If PV had burned an overinsured and empty barn to the ground he would probably have had less trouble in the court of public opinion. The law, of course, would have been the same. And it is very true that quiet and circumspect living can begin to blur the edges of a crime. Which FBI most wanted female was it who married a doctor and re-invented herself? Her upright actions for twenty years didn’t negate her crime, but weighed in her sentencing.
No, personal experiences over the years have shown me that a reputation is a thing of value. I would have serious reservations about working with PV as a re-rider earning my reputation on my riding merits, but also my choice of associates.
It sounds like a great horse business plan. You could import, “train,” and eliminate expensive horses in a variety of creative ways, collect the insurance money, and never have to touch an animal. (You’d have to make sure you had enough loyal followers to handle all the details.) It certainly would be cleaner, more profitable, and less frustrating than dealing in person with all those juniors, amateur adults, and unpredictable equines.
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