Paul valliere

[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;2662938]
I’m wondering if Anthem could “forgive” if it was her horse that was killed…[/QUOTE]

This makes no sense since the horses that were killed were all killed with the owner’s blessings. I am certainly NOT defending the actions, but to ask Anthem how she would feel is ludicrous. Anthem is a lovely person, and although I do not support her choices or her trainer, I will not be openly cruel to her. Nor will I support statements like the above.

Innapropriate, in my book. I AM as disturbed as the rest of you regarding PV’s involvement in the killings AND his present involvement in the horse industry and I choose to NOT train with him or anyone who has associations with him (believe me, that makes it very hard to find a good trainer around here).

Now, that said, for all we know there was more than just greed behind it: he needed money–what would have happened to him if he didn’t get the money [lost his business, his house, his left pinky]?
IIRC, there was also the issue of PRIDE and professional reputaion.

One of the people convicted in the insurance cases (not sure which one) had bought an expensive, successful horse. But the horse did not go well for him, so he had an expensive unsuccessful horse. My understanding wa that at least part of the motive was that he did not want to admit that he could not ride the horse as well as the previous rider.

Does it really matter why PV killed a horse or who told him to? He intentionally killed a horse because it no longer served its purpose and it’s not like the horse died because of ignorance. I still think the man should have had alligator clips attached to his testicles and been electrocuted himself. One less a$$hole in the world. “And that’s all I have to say about that.” Forrest Gump

Oh for God’s sake. How foolish and short-sighted can you be to think killing it for the insurance money is going to be better for your professional reputation? Pride maybe, but . . just BUT.

It is a simple question of honor , once honor is lost it’s lost. Those who choose to monetarily support such a dishonorable person choose to dishonor themselves and diminish their own credibility. You choose to support this man because he can give you the best chance at winning. For those who truly understand that honor is everything, blue ribbons don’t mean much. It really is that simple. You can justify those actions as much as you want,you can forgive all you want , it does not change what is and always will be.

So Pwynn, are you attempting to rationalize PV’s behavior? Do you believe there was any reason great enough to justify what he did? As some one else noted, burn an empty barn, get lots of insurance money ( more than for the horse probably) but no harm done to a living being.

I’m not sure the Amish comparision is appropriate. They live in a society that has not changed in centuries and their attitudes reflect the world they inhabit. PV does not live in that world.

Does it really matter who the horses belonged to? What matters is that it was done… The reason I stated that is because I’ve heard many people with the attitude of I can forgive people for anything… untill it happens close to home.

UGHH!!!

[QUOTE=anthem35;2662872]
OK, in your meeting with Paul, did you pose the question, “why”?

Facts are facts, but these threads tend to enlarge as a result of hearsay and sensationalist prattle.

Yes, there is a court transcript…and the facts that surround it…its just the forum’s speculation on what went on in PAULS mind that is hard to digest.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I hate getting sucked in but this thread is ^$$@# me off.

Uh…the fact is he had a horse killed to benefit from the insurance money! The very “horse(s)” that afforded him a living. It was premeditated…he had to hire someone didn’t he-his fingers weren’t getting “bloody!” As for why…isn’t that obvious?!

Anthem35-why don’t you ask him what was going on in his head? I gather it was a selfish thought, since he was the main one benefiting from his thoughts!

Not to drag up other horrific animal abuse individuals–but how different is this from Vick? Both, in a sense, are/were role models to young people, and they are obligated to conduct themselves accordingly. Shame on them for taking their wealth and connections to advance themselves monetarily. PV should stay banned as well as Vick should be banned from the NFL. This is obnoxious, intolerable behavior in today’s society. I can not believe the supporters out there for both of these men.

Anthem35-curious question here-if PV said to you that your horse was worth more dead than alive, what would you do?

logic of the followers

I am not surprised by the “forgive camp”. You know-there are people out there who will marry people who have committed murder, convicted child molesters (and have children with them), rapists…because those people are really sorry for their crimes. They served their time and we should not let them keep paying for it. Really to me-the logic is the same here. He is sorry, he paid for his crime (although I don’t know how) and I forgive him because he is a changed man.

Kudos to you for seeing through the previous bad character. I am not forgiving enough to do so.

mikes mcs–great post! It must be the LI upbringing! Massapequa is my hometown!

You lie in bed with dogs and you will get fleas.:yes::yes::yes:
I think you would learn more if you took obedience classes with your dog from Michael Vick!!!

How many of the horse murders was PV actually tied to? I think one is more than enough for a lifelong ban from the industry, but I ask because of the comments that none of the killings were done without the knowledge of the owners. I know for a fact that one of them, here in Chicago, was done without the owner’s knowledge. I can’t imagine anyone can claim that PV was involved with that one in Chicago, and I’m not trying to imply that, but how many of the others was he involved with and is it a known fact that in all cases the owners requested it be done?

I haven’t read Hot Blood in a few years, so some of the details are a little fuzzy, but I don’t remember how many were tied to Paul and also the relationship between what happened here in Chicago and on the East Coast. Just curious…

This thread brings to mind the women who marry men on death row or those serving consecutive life terms, who insist either “He’s not guilty, he would never do such a thing.” or “He’s very sorry and he’ll never do it again.” They almost seem believable until you read details of why the guy is behind bars…

chicagogirl… they were all lumped together, and accused, and convicted… you bet your hind parts they were all part of it…

The complete list of the accused:

Kenneth Hansen, 61, of Chicago, three counts of murder; Richard Bailey, 65, of Chicago, racketeering, mail and wire fraud, money laundering, and crimes relating to murder; Robert Brown of Michigan, racketeering, mail and wire fraud; Jerry Farmer, 61, of Augusta, Ga., racketeering, impeding the IRS; Dr. Ross Hugi, 50, of Mundelein, Ill., wire fraud (pleaded guilty); Barney Ward, 50, of Brewster, N.Y., mail and wire fraud, obstruction of justice, threatening a witness, and conspiracy; George Lindemann Jr., 30, of Greenwich, Conn., wire fraud; Marion Hulick, 60, of Greenwich, Conn., wire fraud;

]Paul Valliere[/b], 43, North Smithfield, R.I., conspiracy; Nancy Banfield, 36, of Mathews, Va., conspiracy; Donna Brown, 37, of Palm Beach, Fla., wire fraud; Tim Ray a.k.a. Tom Burns, conspiracy; Dr. Dana Tripp, 34, of Valencia, Pa., conspiracy, failure to file tax returns, and concealing a felony; Johnnie Youngblood, 32, of Napierville, Ill., mail fraud; Steve Williamson, 51, of Plainfield, Ill., mail fraud; Tammie Glaspie, 36, of Walker, Mich., mail fraud; James Hutson, 53, of Winona, Mich., mail fraud; Alan Levinson, 52, of Highland Park, Ill., mail fraud (pleaded guilty); Michael Hunter, 45, of Mundelein, Ill., mail fraud (pleaded guilty); Donna Hunter, 43, of Mundelein, mail fraud; Phil Sudakoff, 76, of Chicago, mail fraud; Herb Kroninger, 53, of Bolingbrook, Ill., mail fraud; Scott Thompson, conspiracy; Ron Mueller, 62, formerly of Harvard, Ill., lying to federal peace officer.

Yes, you are, both, emotionally & financially.

But at this point, I just see a man who actually IS SORRY…and HAS been paying the price for his crime, and will be until the end of time, who has asked for the chance to make amends.

OK, but the answer to how he can “make amends” is to get out of horses. He may have asked for the chance, but is ignoring the requirement. If he wants “forgiveness” it is in his hands. He needs to do the right thing for the animals, the sport, and the industry. As long as he does not, he is just proving what a selfish, greedy person he is.

[QUOTE=lelevic;2662459]
I actually live in Augusta and nobody in our town will touch Mr. F. with a ten foot pole.[/QUOTE]

Ummm… it would take a six-foot pole as of a couple years ago…

Jesus may forgive, but I’ll never forget.

And that’s all I have to say about that.

A back hoe and a six foot pole.:D:D:D

On the rational side, there are worse crimes. I think that’s what a few were getting at when accused of supporting PV. They don’t at all. Just asking for some careful thought here.

Now, I don’t hate anybody who trains with him and works with him and I wouldn’t skip over an otherwise fairly represented sale horse who might have passed thru that barn at some point…but whatever do you tell non horsey friends who might ask why your trainer/employer is not allowed on the show grounds? How can you explain to them why it’s OK for an athlete convicted of conspiracy to commit fraud involving killing a horse for profit (or to save their reputation when they couldn’t make it work?) to continue participation in the sport when any other athlete in any other sport would be shunned for life? And have been shunned/banned for things that did not involve something dying…look at the demand for an asterisk on a recent baseball record due to steroid use that was NOT illegal in years past when some of those balls went out of the park.

I often find myself defending aspects of horse sports like racing to non horsey types who think all the animals are abused…what the hell would I say to somebody who asked why PV was reinstated by our national governing body?

I fear the non horsey general public wouldn’t understand the nuances of this type of thing should he get back in any more then they tolerated some of the other sports gaffs or are tolerating MV returning to the NFL.

It would be a PR nightmare if PV ever gains reinstatement and do our beloved horse sports no good at all.

That’s just my 2 cents worth on this.

Any discussion of motivation is hearsay. Many, many posters on this thread makes huge assumptions as to why PV did what he did, that he doesn’t regret it, only that he got caught, etc. We had the holocaust comparion pages and pages back…I thought that was suppose to end any attempt at reasonable discussion. :smiley:

Many people are incapable of logical, unemotional discussion on this topic. The assumptions and suppositions fly. They can’t even see that they are making assumptions.

FWIW, I’m not a PV supporter, but neither am I a hater. There’s just too much missing information for me to make an informed decision on motivations, regret, remorse, etc.

I think some of the outrage, and I know that this applies to me, is that he (and to be fair - the rest of the pack) has not been prohibited from participating in horse shows. What was done is half-assed and sends all sorts of mixed messages.
It’s like waiting for the other shoe to drop.
If he was permanently banned from participating in the horse show world and this was enforced…I would be much more willing to say…you served your time, have a nice life.
But that hasn’t happened.

edited to add:
The message that I take away from USEF’s inability and unwillingness to permanently ban those who engage in serious offenses against the rest of the horse world, is that they are afraid that if they ban everyone who deserves it, there won’t be anyone left. I find that insulting.