Pelhams in USA - why so popular?

[MontysGal]

[QUOTE=inca;8827964]

a snaffle, pelham, or full bridle that is unconventional. Unconventional snaffles, pelhams, or full bridles include, but are not limited to, hunter gags, kimberwickes, etc.
b. Judges must eliminate a horse or pony that competes in illegal bits or nosebands. Illegal bits include, but are not limited to, three rings, gags (other than the hunter gag), et cetera… [/QUOTE]

What the heck is a hunter gag? I tried googling…

And OP didn’t mention she was specifically talking about hunters, although the comment about snaffles being preferred seems to be about right.
OP, do you mean you don’t see them often in European hunters?

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=doublesstable;8827966]
I have been riding Hunters for 35 years or so and all the barns I have been at use snaffle type Ds - Never seen the barbaric stuff you guys are talking about…[/QUOTE]

My memory is not what it used to be, but back in the 70s (IIRC), the belief that “any horse can be ridden in a snaffle” came into vogue, at least in my corner of the hunter world. The stable that I rode at through the mid- to late-70s had a tack room full of various snaffles: “regular,” French-link, slow twist, corkscrew, single and double twisted wire…

I don’t recall ever thinking of any of them as “barbaric,” or seeing any horse that I thought was in distress due to the bit that was being used.

That said, I will go to a kimberwick or pelham if I feel a regular snaffle bit doesn’t provide adequate control rather than try a more severe snaffle mouthpiece.

[Ceylon_Star]

[QUOTE=MontysGal;8829027]
What the heck is a hunter gag? I tried googling…

And OP didn’t mention she was specifically talking about hunters, although the comment about snaffles being preferred seems to be about right.
OP, do you mean you don’t see them often in European hunters?[/QUOTE]

My guess is a hunter gag is a dee ring with hooks.

[Kottbulle]

Something else I like about the Pelham is that they tend to be somewhat suspended in the horse’s mouth. I’ve found that my mare who has two very different bars in her mouth ( one side is normal the other has a very almost sharp ridge to it) prefers a Pelham or even a baucher. I feel like the fact that it acts more on the corners of her mouth and never really can hit her on the bars seems to make her happier. I’m currently playing around with a copper lozenge Pelham on my OTTB. So far he loves it and is actually the most relaxed he has been in a bit. So far I really haven’t even been using the curb rein. But I like having the option of it if he starts throwing up his head or he does his current favorite temper tantrum move… Point my nose to the sky and bolt, thankfully he hasn’t been doing that recently.

[GoodTimes]

I don’t think I would consider a pelham and super common bit. In 20 years I’ve only ever used one on one horse and that was for only one season. I was 13, tall for my age, but 100lbs soaking wet, so we showed in it since the horse would pull a little through his changes. I was able o use two reins so it seemed gentler vs a slow twist.

I’ve currently got one in a big D with a copper roller, he gets flatted in an elevator once in awhile as a reminder. The other one gets flatted in a big D with a copper lozenge, he jumps/shows in a waterford.

Most of the pelhams I see are on equitation horses, and 90% of them would be using two reins.

[JenEM]

I’m not sure I buy the “Europeans don’t use them” premise of the discussion. Presuming that the OP is European and most familiar with show jumping bitting, it’s an odd statement. Looking at photos from Rio, all three of the individual medal winners had a pelham or pelham-like bit (it’s difficult to tell from the photos on a quick Google) on their horses. Granted, Lamaze is Canadian, not English or Swedish, but still. Guerdat, who finished 4th and was the prior individual gold medallist, had a pelham on his horse. So it appears to be pretty routine in the top ranks of international showjumpers, including Europeans.

That said, I use a pelham on my mare for jumping because that’s what she goes best in. She flats in a french link snaffle, usually a full cheek, sometimes a baucher if we’re seriously dressaging. We can go around a 3’ course in a snaffle, but it’s so much easier and sublter to half-halt, the horse is so much softer, and the course is so much smoother, in a pelham. Believe me, the horse went through pretty much every iteration of snaffle we could think of, and I was actually reluctant to try a pelham because the horse is weird about poll pressure. But she’s actually really happy in it. Sometimes do hunters, usually eq and sidesaddle (where a pelham or double is actually required), occasionally dabble in the jumpers. The horses don’t get a manual on what bit they “should” go best in.

ETA: After spending a few minutes looking through photos of the top 10 from Rio, it looks like the only person going around in a snaffle IS American–McLain Ward!

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;8829032]
My memory is not what it used to be, but back in the 70s (IIRC), the belief that “any horse can be ridden in a snaffle” came into vogue, at least in my corner of the hunter world. The stable that I rode at through the mid- to late-70s had a tack room full of various snaffles: “regular,” French-link, slow twist, corkscrew, single and double twisted wire…

I don’t recall ever thinking of any of them as “barbaric,” or seeing any horse that I thought was in distress due to the bit that was being used.

That said, I will go to a kimberwick or pelham if I feel a regular snaffle bit doesn’t provide adequate control rather than try a more severe snaffle mouthpiece.[/QUOTE]

I was responding to two posts where one said barbed wire…below.

I too have seen french link, slow twists and regular snaffles used mostly. No double twists or corksrews. (in the right hands wouldn’t think those are barbaric…

I agree with your post 100%; we would use a Pelham if we feel a regular snaffle bit doesn’t provide the control needed…

[QUOTE=222orchids;8827618]

While I agree that 99% of equitation rounds are done in the Pelham, (at higher levels) there is nothing necessarily “soft” about what lies behind that “D”. As long as you have what “looks like” a D on the outside, it could have barbed wire in the horse’s mouth. I’ll take my double-jointed Pelham with the copper lozenge in the middle, anytime, compared to some of the barbaric wire stuff I see between the "D"s in the hunter ring.[/QUOTE]

[Goldie_locks]

[QUOTE=lmlacross;8828644]
Okay, I was being hyperbolic, clearly (given the multiple moupieces and addition of lawn equipment). But seriously-- you’ve surely encountered a hunter who goes in a corkscrew or double twisted wire, right? I can’t imagine it’s that unusual.[/QUOTE]

Hyperbolic - figures. The question should be to those speculating about barbaric bits in the Hunters, have YOU seen a top Hunter go in a Double twisted wire and was it barbaric?

I see this thread has gotten a bit off topic about the Pelham - but those beating up the Hunter division over what’s in a D bit is ridiculous.

If you couldn’t tell this bit is a double twist while in the horses mouth you are not a very educated horseman.

http://www.horsecountrycarrot.com/index.cfm?action=store&sub=product&prod=1729&cat=148

Better yet, take a walk to the jumper ring and tell me what you see.

[GoodTimes]

@Goldie locks;8829551

I see this thread has gotten a bit off topic about the Pelham - but those beating up the Hunter division over what’s in a D bit is ridiculous.

If you couldn’t tell this bit is a double twist while in the horses mouth you are not a very educated horseman.

http://www.horsecountrycarrot.com/index.cfm?action=store&sub=product&prod=1729&cat=148

If the horse was being soft and had it’s mouth closed then no I wouldn’t be able to see what was between the D’s from the judges booth.

Standing beside the horse then sure, you’d probably be able to tell.

[lmlacross]

[QUOTE=Goldie locks;8829551]
Hyperbolic - figures. The question should be to those speculating about barbaric bits in the Hunters, have YOU seen a top Hunter go in a Double twisted wire and was it barbaric?

I see this thread has gotten a bit off topic about the Pelham - but those beating up the Hunter division over what’s in a D bit is ridiculous.

If you couldn’t tell this bit is a double twist while in the horses mouth you are not a very educated horseman.

http://www.horsecountrycarrot.com/index.cfm?action=store&sub=product&prod=1729&cat=148

Better yet, take a walk to the jumper ring and tell me what you see.[/QUOTE]

Goldie, I’m a little confused by your post. Are your responding to me, or just quoting me?

There is no judgment in my post at all-- no “beating up” of the hunter division over their mouthpieces. In the context of my original reply, my only comment was that I found it silly to fall in line with the reduction that “snaffle=soft”-- that’s what I was trying to illustrate through hyperbole. Mouthpieces vary in every style of bit-- that was my only point. We can’t presume to know from a cheekpiece at 20-30 yards what a mouthpiece might be. Because of this, I never understood the reluctance to use a pelham in the hunter ring–without hesitation–if the horse gives a better, softer, happier ride in that bit.

I do believe that people will do all they can to stay in a snaffle because they assume (perhaps incorrectly) that judges may prefer a horse in a snaffle to a similar trip in a pelham because it implies something about the horse being a ratable, quiet sort. Maybe if all other aspects of the two trips and way of going are equal in quality this could happen, but, in my experience, this seldom really the case, so the bit never really needs to serve as this sort of “tiebreaker.”

And yes–even an uneducated horseman can spot a double twisted wire mouthpiece at 10-15 feet because you can identify it from the cheek. Not true of all mouthpieces, and not true across a large ring, necessarily. And I don’t have a problem with the bit either way if the horse is going well in it.

I have no problem with a horse–hunter or otherwise–going in the bit they go best in-- including any iteration of snaffle OR pelham–within the rules of the division and discipline in question. Use the bit that gets the best ride.

[IPEsq]

I really like a Pelham for a lot of horses, and I don’t believe it’s ever been scored negatively in the hunters that I have experienced.

[ladyj79]

My rider in Europe is one of the very few that i have seen in Europe who does the grand prix in a snaffle. On one horse. It is not common at all at that level for the horses to go in a snaffle. The various pelhams are very popular. Various gags are very popular. Actually I think I’ve seen more hackamores in the grand prix than plain snaffles.

These kind of conversations are always really popular with people who don’t ride upper level horses. It is just a different beast. I mean literally haha some horses are just very different on course. So we often flat horses in a snaffle or a silicon Mullen mouth for instance and then use a Pelham or gag for classes. Although I freely admit to frequently flatting our giant dinosaur in a Pelham because as someone else said it felt like cheating haha especially when I was pregnant I needed the help.

[Gumby80]

I don’t think I’ve seen more Pelhams in the U.S., but many more jointed Pelhams. Growing up I saw mostly port mouth Pelhams. I like both for different types of horses.

The biggest difference I noticed is the more severe mouthpieces here. I had never seen a slow twist or a W snaffle before I came here, except in history books. I am not saying that they are instruments of torture, but would probably try something else first, if I needed more control. But bottom line, if the horse is happy with the bit, then I’m happy.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8830012]
I really like a Pelham for a lot of horses, and I don’t believe it’s ever been scored negatively in the hunters that I have experienced.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think it should be a ding on the Hunter using a Pelham but yes I have seen it and experienced it.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=doublesstable;8832141]
I don’t think it should be a ding on the Hunter using a Pelham but yes I have seen it and experienced it.[/QUOTE]

How do you know? Did you speak with the judge?

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8832262]
How do you know? Did you speak with the judge?[/QUOTE]

On one occasion watched the rounds and horse had a great round but wearing a Pelham… was 3rd…

Next day same thing… did approach the ring steward to talk to the judge and YES judge said horse was placed lower because of pelham…

I had this happen at another show one was a rated other was a schooling show. Same thing even after talking to the judges.

Edited to add - I recall at time (about 20 + years ago) at a schooling show riding a friends pony in a hunter class was using a kimberwick and judge actually approached me and said the pony was cute but with the bit I had he was knocked to second place…

[refresh]

I am a bit surprised by some of the responses saying that pelhams are not that popular, and that all hunters go in a plain D ring snaffle or will be sent home.
I will preface my observations with this: I am obsessed with photos AND with bits. I look at photos from European websites of shows from every weekend. I have also spent the past 5 years working as a professional photographer at shows in WA, MA, OH, KY, NY, TX as well as working at WEF for several seasons. I even have a folder of photos of interesting bits I see along the way.
Pelhams are everywhere! Most certainly on equitation horses, but also on top hunters. Sure, it can ding you if you are tied with another beautiful round that went in a happy mouth. But many, many top trainers with a lot on the line send horses into the hunter ring with a pelham on. I have never been to Europe, but from my obsessive consumption of horse photos, I can say many many more horses go in something like a gag or a 3 ring of some kind. Sure, pelhams are not unusual in Europe, but the OP isn’t too far off that they seem more popular here. I think an early poster nailed it - it’s a go-to, as you can have a snaffle and a little brakes AND you can walk into any ring with it.
I always noticed when a horse had a plain D on, where you could see from the corners that it had a normal mouthpiece. Even then, a segunda would look like that from the outside. In my observation more horses in a D ring snaffle have something going on inside than don’t. One of the most popular bits I see on hunters right now is the “Pletcher bit” which is certainly not a plain D. Many go in corkscrews and I have seen a bicycle chain at big shows as well. Just my rambling observations on bits in the H/J world from 2005-2016.

[222orchids]

Did you watch the International Hunter Derby finals a couple of weeks ago? I think Monterey was the only horse in a Pelham. They are acceptable under the rules and he got a good score for a good round but they are hardly “everywhere”. All this talk about Pelhams not being so unusual in Europe is amusing, considering that what is rare in Europe, is the hunter division, itself! That’s barely heard of, so what’s going in a Pelham over there are the jumpers, anyhow.

[Madeline]

[QUOTE=lmlacross;8829793]
Goldie,
I have no problem with a horse–hunter or otherwise–going in the bit they go best in-- including any iteration of snaffle OR pelham–within the rules of the division and discipline in question. Use the bit that gets the best ride.[/QUOTE]

Back in the dark ages when there were outside courses that went up and down hill and they were ridden at an aggressive pace, there were more pelhams. Now that all classes are in a perfectly flat ring and ridden at a glacial pace, there is little need for more actual stopping power. (I almost resisted the temptation to mention all the calming supplements.)