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PEMF: Is it just snake oil? Yes or No: Back Pain Stories and Solutions--EPM, Neuro, Bone Chips in necks and more

Hunter/Jumper
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#82

My 16.2h gelding could probably look fine on that amount of concentrates. Muscle wasting on the haunches and being underweight are not the same issue. Plus, he did not pass the neuro tests, which suggests that the muscle wasting is in this case a neurological sign, not a nutrition problem.

I did read the history, and he had behavioral problems in the last program also. It is possible it could be EPM, but when you have an actual clinical finding that also makes sense already, I guess I wouldn’t jump to EPM (and I am not shy about doing at least the blood test on my horses even if it’s not highly likely–but I don’t jump to spend money on Marquis without testing if there are other differential diagnoses).

The hock could also explain some of the canter issues. But with the neuro issues being more concerning, I’d probably start with an ultrasound of the neck, knowing already that there’s something in there. The chip may have been there for a long time… with my horse his lesion was likely there by the time he was 2-3 yrs old. But while that particular finding did not change over time, he did have inflammation on the joint, and he did then develop arthritic changes in other spots in the neck over the next years.

3 Likes
#83

Jumping in just for two secs. Since I live in the world of scheduling neurologic evals for a living, allow me to dole out a couple tips.

(OP - This is for everyone reading and not pointed at you, but for sure this info can be valuable to all who read it, including you)

  1. If a horse is neurologic, it doesn’t always mean to the point of falling down. To help people start to understand the disconnect between rider’s images of “neurologic horse” and what an actual one can look like, please watch this short clip of my horse Gin.

This is 15 seconds long but in slow mo so you can see:

He was neurologic from Cervical arthritis in his neck. Grade 2/5 on the Mayhew scale. The only symptom I saw when riding was he couldn’t keep a course at 3’6" up at shows. Could at home.

  1. IF you do get one stumbling or tripping a lot, STOP riding it. Start with a neuro exam!!! I have seen folks call to schedule who are 6 months or more down a THOUSANDS of dollars rabbit hole. Start with neuro, it costs the least and if that’s not it you can always block and inject to your heart’s content.

  2. Try to get your vet to talk to a neurologist about the case. They can. YOU cannot. There’s 3 neurologists in the USA and they do consult with vets about the cases they see and when it’s vet to vet, they can discuss drugs and treatments to try. They can’t discuss it with you, especially if they have not seen your horse.

  3. PPE’s- Do cervical spine rads so you have a baseline. Some scary things coming into prominence (EDM) and you will benefit mightily if you have that information from when you bought the horse.

Em

13 Likes
#84

No, I’m sorry I worded that very wrong. I meant that symptom wise he is not presenting fine one day and not fine the next. He is not erratic in his behavior. He most definitely does not fall down when I ride him or ever spontaneously. He is very normal day to day but under saddle and in the neuro he presented abnormal.

#85

Some neuro horses can be safe enough to ride in that they won’t fall down, etc. However, in my experience, this horse has already been telling you and his current and previous riders and trainers that he is not ok. Every horse with a neck issue that I have owned or encountered (including client horses when I was doing some training and rehabs myself), started with a behavioral issue. I have seen it with all sorts of pain issues from other causes as well (in the cases of people coming to me because all attempts at rehabbing were going wrong and horse was balking, tripping, swapping, bucking, rearing, biting, running backwards, spooking, spinning, whatever). Having owned that horse myself and chased one physical problem after another, your horse is clearly stating he is in pain. Neuro pain and instability in particular can be unpredictable, can come and go, and can be very unsettling to the horse, who is a prey animal. This can cause them to act out, to shut down, to become hyperreactive and spooky, but that can come and go along with the pain.

Maybe I read it wrong, but I think you said his blood test for EPM was negative. Do you know the titer numbers? Depending on where you live, what is “negative” may differ and there can be a gray area. But it looks like there are some real other non-infectious possibilities for other causes of this horse’s issues that would be fairly easy to investigate further.

1 Like
#86

This suggests that his problem was ongoing, and although he wasn’t bucking when you tried him, he was not fit or in good condition. Do you know why they weren’t riding him regularly?

1 Like
#87

have you ever had an experience with getting one done? did it really help? also any insight into neck stuff is appreciated!

#88

ya the nutritional stuff definitely varies from horse to horse, I just saw when looking at pics I took closer to when I bought him verses later when I sent them to a saddle fitter how much he had lost. His whole Topline is lacking muscle not just his haunches which I did not make clear. What behavioral problems in the old programs are you referring to, I am not sure what I mentioned that caught your eye? The hocks are in the back seat at the moment and we are tackling neuro first definitely.

#89

Really great insight, thank you!!

#90

That video really is insightful. He never stumbles behind like that but every once in a while like every three or so rides he will step “deep” is the only way to describe it, not lame but not normal either and it looks very similar but far less pronounced. I will look more into his neck bone chip with that video in hand. Do you have any more specifics on his bone chip?

#91

I agree that he definitely is experiencing pain. He is the sweetest in your pocket guy and that’s why variations really make me sit up and notice. Another person posted a video and explanation that showed something I have had a hard time explaining. However, Middleton presents to a vastly lesser degree but it could very much be similar and related therefore to his bone chip. His original test was negative but he had elevated inflammation levels. Your info is super investing and experience is always a great thing to share so I will keep it all in mind!

#92

he was in light work because he was at a fox hunting barn. The owner bought him for her father who is the master and Middleton did not like all the hounds being around his legs and all that so he was not really suited for it. Her dad wanted a horse more hunting seasoned as previously Middleton was a hunter/jumper and she had to prioritize the sales and client horses at the barn she runs so he wasn’t prioritized workload wise.

#93

And after a trial of Robaxin, which is a CNS depressant

[quote=“middleton.the.grey, post:1, topic:768565”]
He was on it for a week and acted very weird. He was a bit loopy, very drowsy at times usually in paddock when he would play or socialize and in his stall just kind of stand there (not really depressed more so uninterested), when I rode him if he spooked at something he would not let it go which was very uncharacteristic and he ended up spinning away from something and acting super nervous (he has never spooked that bad and was overall very not himself). Under saddle (which is why we tried it) he exhibited no change in faith if anything it was worse in areas he was bad in.[/quote]

1 Like
#94

I think it was a combination of lack of good nutrition and a progressive issue. He lost weight in both muscle and “fat” while at the former barn. The vet thinks the lack of muscle was due to Vitamin E levels being low and the potential EPM.

#95

FYI it’s spelled “Myelogram”

It’s the ONLY way to confirm spinal cord compression in the neck 100%

Don’t get me wrong, all the time people come to us saying a horse has compression based off xrays alone. And to an extent you can guess with the knowledge on a radiograph, but true one hundred percent certainty is reserved for myelograms.

As a diagnostic tool, it doesn’t so much ‘help’ a horse, as provide information to the humans/support crew of the horse.

You can watch this video and see what a myelogram looks like and involves as it is a part of a full neuro eval for EPM, EDM and the like.

Em

4 Likes
#96

Yes. We had a horse that had a preliminary diagnosis as a Wobbler, and was referred to Dr Steve Reed at Rood and Riddle. The milogram showed narrowing in the spinal cord around C5/6. The puts pressure on the spinal cord, no bueno. Horse ended up needing to be put down, as he became more and more ataxic. He became a danger to himself and everyone who had to handle him

It isn’t a treatment, it’s a diagnostic tool.

3 Likes
#97

HA, thanks for the spell check!!!
And it is quite a procedure, but it’s the only way to see what is really going on with the spinal cord
I can spell conformation, just not myelogram, lol!

2 Likes
#98

Oh, that behavior (the bucking) was exhibited at the barn where I am at now. His reaction to the robinaxin was just a twoish weeks ago at my current barn. He was only on it for a week to see if his discomfort changed at all.

#99

I see, thanks so much!

#100

Regarding the “muscle wasting” and potential causes of same:

it isn’t very common for EPM to present with symmetrical loss of muscle mass.
I would be more suspicious of some other etiology.

5 Likes
#101

Here is article to check out about my horse who had EDM for all that are curious. It is a horrible insidious disease.

http://read.uberflip.com/i/1089065-march-11-18-2019/33?fbclid=IwAR3Ny2t5we8mUmJ-LsC97HFWaiD2UlOv2drrT1ULpEfWV9a9OnFucU7_M5E

3 Likes

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