It’s apparent Packy doesn’t hang with a very nice crowd.
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And on the Safe Sport Overhaul page are several ‘reform’ advocates who think teen girls that throw themselves at male trainers should also be banned. SMH
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I am not saying that the vast majority of hunter jumper people are anti Safe sport.
I AM saying that the anti Safe Sport comments, newly formed nonprofit, etc all over social media in relation to equestrian Safe Sport cases are MOSTLY coming from the hunter jumper community.
The commentary from a small circle of folks within that community has been SO intense, and SO focused, and the same small circle has systematically repeated certain talking points related to the Gage case and the GM case SO many times, that there now is a groundswell of people within the hunter jumper community in particular who are worried about Safe Sport. There are many people who think reform is necessary in order to protect people from “one single accusation from over 50 years ago coming from an anonymous accuser who has no evidence.”
My use of the term groundswell was not to imply everyone was anti Safe Sport… but it was meant to imply that the social media commentary and anti Safe Sport activity going on with this small circle IS making an impact. Many others now believe Safe Sport reform is needed, or are carefully hedging what they say publicly, and moderating their support for Safe Sport, because influential people at the top of the sport, people close to judges, and people who were icons and heroes in a prior era… these people are speaking so loudly AGAINST Safe Sport.
Select statements crafted by Phelps Media, as well as Bonnie Navin - statements that came out very early on in the Gage and GM cases - have been repeated over and over and over again by this small circle who are anti Safe Sport. People who are friends and fans of those in the small circle, have taken these statements and repeated them on social media. It’s a very visible and public thing that is easy to see if you are watching (I admit I am).
There is no doubt that a large component of folks joining onto the “Safe Sport needs reform” crowd, are stopping short of repeating specific talking points that they don’t have any confidence in (stuff like “there was only one accuser from many many decades ago and there is no evidence that the relationship was not consensual”). Many folks in the Safe Sport reform crowd also are NOT proclaiming that they are part of ISWG. HOWEVER, there is an ingrained tendency to suck up to the old guard that is rather unique and notable in the hunter jumper community. Judging in hunters and equitation in particular, has a subjective component to it, and being connected to the right folks at the top of the sport, and well liked, and riding with a trainer who is well liked all are factors competitive people pay attention to. So as the last 18 months have gone on, and the Jimmy Williams, Rob Gage, and now George Morris cases have become public and been the topic of reports and articles which have been widely shared across social media… there is a visible dynamic of folks in the hunter, jumper and equitation communities who are commenting and indicating support for “Safe Sport Reform” but stopping short of signing onto ISWG or saying that the accusations are unfounded. Many of the comments supporting “reform” are vague, but repeat different bits of misinformation about Safe Sport, and MAAP guidelines. And the misinformation by and large originated from that intense small circle which has a personal connection to these 3 cases. The word that comes to mind as I watch this happen each time a new article gets posted on the Chronicle’s Facebook page and the comments start going is “alignment.”
I know I am being lengthy again (too much morning coffee, and I tend to read and post while drinking late morning coffee after early chores). But I want to be crystal clear and fair about what I am seeing. I welcome pushback telling me that there are in person discussions going on within the community at shows and in hunter barns where kids ride that I am simply unaware of (I don’t ride at a hunter barn nor do I show hunters… haven’t since I was a kid and young teen). I only know what I see in terms of public statements, comments on social media, and what I hear in person from friends who are currently active with showing and coaching.
I do think abuse is an issue across the entire breadth of equestrian sport. Absolutely. The Safe Sport list has names from multiple disciplines. Two names in particular though, Jim Giorgio from the Morgan community, and Randy Cates from the Saddlebred community have been all over social media supporting the charge led by the small circle within the hunter jumper world that is adamantly anti Safe Sport. It’s quite interesting to watch. I’ve brought it up on other COTH discussion threads… but I have noticed that some of the elite folks within the tight small circle closely connected to JW, RG, and GM have NOT rejected the likes of Randall Cates and Jim Giorgio and their commentary about Safe Sport, etc. The facts related to the specific cases behind the lifetime bans Safe Sport gave these two men are public. The facts of their specific cases and bans do NOT seem to align with any number of talking points that come up over and over and over again from folks who are either anti Safe Sport, or pro Safe Sport reform. So why precisely is the small circle welcoming these two individuals to their fight? Is the wider “pro reform” circle looking closely at what is going on within the small, influential inner circle they are choosing to align with?
There is an old saying about being careful about the company you keep. The whole dynamic of Randall Cates and Jim Giorgio commenting on multiple threads started by Bonnie Navin? And the fact that Randall Cates was an active participant in the Safe Sport Reform group, until they removed him (after we brought up his history REPEATEDLY on these forums)… well… I think that age old saying applies here.
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That’s APPALLING.
If an underage girl is abused or assaulted by an older male trainer, a trainer who is prominent and has a barn full of clients who all are competitive, and want to be a favorite, guess what…
If there are no witnesses to the assault and she doesn’t immediately report it and begin gathering evidence, if there is any evidence, she is going to NOT ONLY have the stress that she will be shunned by this particular barn and trainer if she speaks up, and become persona non grata
She will have the stress of worrying that she will be counter accused of “throwing” herself at him, and getting banned from the sport.
But hey… these people support victims. Sure. Except teenagers who have any number of complicated emotional and social issues going on, and somehow end up having sexual intercourse with adult male trainers. Nope. No support for teens like that. Because those girls are a problem for older male trainers who lack self control and professionalism. Let’s just ban those sort of teens from the sport if they speak up and say anything about the inappropriate sexual contact they had with adult trainers. Let’s blame and shame them… AND kick them out of the sport.
Uggh. People are horrible.
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Repeating for the people in the back!
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I told my riding teacher this morning that her stable was the ONLY hunter stable that I was totally sure did not support in any way, manner, or form the sexual abuse of minors by adult teachers, coaches or trainers. I have been riding at this stable over a decade, and have never seen anything that hints in any way at it being acceptable for an adult equestrian to sexually abuse anyone, children or adults (or horses for that matter).
The fact that higher-ups in this sport, top instructors etc., are trying to defeat Safe Sport is absolutely horrifying to me. I have two grandsons, and I had been planning to sacrifice so they could get riding lessons up where they live, but no longer. There is NO WAY that I can guarantee that a riding lesson business is against raping minors, and I am not going to push to put these boys possibly into harms way.
So right here the push back against Safe Sport has denied the industry the ability to make a profit off my two grandsons, and any other grandchildren I may have since I do they do not live near me, and I have no idea if any other stable is against the raping of minors, children.
I KNOW that not every hunt seat or other riding instructor is against protecting minors from sexual assault, but there is no way I can know for sure since many of the bigger names ARE trying to defeat Safe Sport.
Also, there is no way any more that I will ever recommend to parents that they get their children riding lessons, except at the barns I’ve ridden at for years without seeing, hearing, or seeing evidence of any abuse of children.
This makes me SAD. Hunt seat has done so much for me, developing courage, the ability to control ones emotions, and the idea that another creature’s “happiness” can be more important than my own.
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Streetwise and don’t forget Freddy Vazquez’s horse Arlene, who met a similar demise. I notice Freddy’s wife donated to the new coalition. How he escaped sanction for what he did to that mare is mystifying.
Back to your regularly scheduled broadcast…
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And I’d like to add something else. I’ve read comments of people arguing that because of SS, kids nowadays will never know what it’s like to grow up as a barn rat. SS is not to blame, it’s the bad trainers that caused us to need SS to protect our youth.
& yes, kids can still hang out at the barn, just follow the SS rules!
I’d be Very weary of ever sending a kid away in a WS situation, because the industry has been brushing abuse under the table for years. I see lots of ads for WS, I wonder if trainers are finding it harder to fill those positions? The anti SS people might be making parents Leary about allowing kids these jobs.
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I find it hard to believe that “most” equestrian professionals are living hand to mouth, especially the ones that have enlisted her services. Pro-bono work for those in the business of showing luxury pets that the average American cannot even begin to afford does not impress me.
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Though I couldn’t guess as to the actual dollar amount, based on the millions in judgements and settlements attached to her steady stream of medical malpractice cases in the state of Florida, Bonnie likely received significant attorney payouts and fees over the past ten years or so from a handful of cases, so her choosing to do pro-bono work for the Equestrian professionals is largely irrelevant to the overall matter, as she could easily afford to do that with a well-filled personal war-chest, whereas a regular lawyer whose bread and butter is far less financially lucrative and far more time-consuming in the endless bog of criminal and civil court cases could certainly not afford to be generous with their time. The social capital she has accrued from her past cases tied to the horse industry also factors into it, as there is no set monetary value for that and she has demonstrated a clear desire to accumulate as much of it as she can, so it’s not as if she’s simply doing it for the proverbial rainbows and unicorns that will appear once the out of control monster known as SafeSport is brought to heel.
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Sorry, but I don’t see Bonnie Navin as a decent human being. Anyone that jumps in to defend these predatory pedophiles can go straight to hell as far as I’m concerned.
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Unless pro-bono work affects your ability to pay your mortgage.
An update… there is another post on social media today. Given that BN has referenced multiple threads here that make mention of her, perhaps this thread in particular, and the “bullying” she is enduring… I figured I might as well just go right ahead and copy and paste this public post to this thread. :encouragement:
Sad call. Young woman, under 21, finally got courage to report her vicious rape by a trainer she trusted to safesport seven months ago. To this date they have not assigned an investigator but will try to get to her in 2020. Rape happened in last 5-7 years. checked in with another victim who reported high profile coach with text and video proof. Reported December 2018. Still no investigator assigned. Happened three years ago. she Has finally stopped calling safesport. She said they failed her and she has been stressed all year waiting to face the issues. Folks trying to fix safesport is for a better system. ps another high profile case with full video of high profile person reported four months ago and they havent had time to address it. there is nothing we can do more. Criminal statutes expired. It’s in safesport hands but three ladies are hurting now because they feel their cases donot matter. Imagine their pain. thankfully I found pro bono mental health counselors to help them free to address their needs. Bash me all you want chronicle people. I’m helping the people that need help. You are too busy bullying me. But the way. Only one is equestrian. One is swimming and one is figure skating.
She’s entitled to defend herself and explain where she’s coming from. I will admit I am having a little trouble following how the focus of her posts has shifted so quickly from Safe Sport being weaponized and launching investigations based on insufficient evidence and how everyone needs to “watch their backs” to Safe Sport being incredibly slow to respond to reports, and failing to start investigations, even when they have robust evidence like video.
In fairness though, the justice system has cases where it fails to get justice for victims, and cases where it pursues and prosecutes people who are later determined innocent. There also is a backlog of unaddressed and unsolved sexual assault cases in many jurisdictions throughout the country. It’s sad… we live in an imperfect world though and this is a tough issue.
one last noteworthy point, Jim Giorgio has made this public comment in response to Bonnie’s public post…
That’s because they are too busy going after the cases from 10,20,30 yrs ago cause they are easier. God forbid they actually try to help the stuff happening today. It’s a joke. Thank you Bonnie for helping these victims.
For anyone who doesn’t already know, he is on the lifetime banned list. He plead guilty to molesting a teenaged girl multiple years ago. I can’t remeber specific details of the case, and am tired of looking this sort of stuff up. But I do recollect that police in more than one state had statements from the girl and her parent, and other evidence related to it, and they accepted a plea from Giorgio so that she didn’t have to go through testifying at trial. So he has been investigated by multiple law enforcement agencies, and been through our criminal justice system.
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I hope she encouraged these victims to go to the police immediately and to press civil charges. Hopefully the justice system will be able to help them. She said the criminal statute expired; that isn’t SafeSport’s fault. As we know SafeSport has many more cases than they ever expected. I am and have never said SS is perfect, it is step in the right direction. I do not believe the older cases are “easier”. How do you explain that?
Yes, I think these women are hurting because they feel their cases do not matter, just like the hundreds and thousands of kids that have been molested in sport over the last 40 years. We all matter. They don’t want trainers/coaches banned until an investigation is conducted, so it is a waiting game for an investigator. So is the legal system.
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Hey, BN claims to be all about the pro bono work. Why doesn’t she take these girls’ cases pro bono and file civil suits for them?
I’m not surprised at her seemingly contradictory post. She and the group she belongs to are all about dismantling SafeSport. They don’t particularly care what they have to do to accomplish that end, even if means attacking SafeSport both for being overzealous and for not being aggressive enough.
And who knows what the whole truth of these situations might be? BN has virtually no credibility on this topic.
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It’s generally fine to discuss public actions and statements made by those involved in issues facing the industry, but please do so without name-calling, etc. We’ve addressed a few posts in the thread.
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The part of her post referencing an expired criminal statute was confusing. There are multiple people currently on the banned list that can’t be prosecuted in a criminal court anymore. As best as I understand at present, statute of limitations relevant to pursuing criminal prosecution is not a factor with Safe Sport cases, except that Safe Sport does forward reports on to law enforcement if the allegation does involve actions that are criminal in nature and can still be investigated and prosecuted by law enforcement (I.e. the statute of limitations has not yet run out).
Maybe I am incorrect… or missing something. I find that part of her post confusing though
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You don’t me. I started my career as a prosecutor (of domestic violence) and married a child abuse detective. I do support the victims. I’ve seen and heard things you probably can’t imagine. But my opinion–which people can have a different opinion than you and not be monsters–is there has to be some balancing if SOLs (which have well founded reasons for being in place) and the process. If we really want SS to work, we need people to support it.
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I 100% agree with you that pedophiles don’t grow out of it; and there is no treatment that works, which is why if the person is a predator there usually is continuing pattern. So maybe requiring a psych eval is part of the process, or a polygraph (which could be used since its not a court of law). Some of these fact patterns don’t fit into neat little boxes and I understand that. My thought is how do we have a process that protects victims, but also appears fair from a due process standpoint, so that we can get more people behind it. I’d like to think those things aren’t mutually exclusive. Again, that might be pie in the sky.
My response was to the question of what real changes could be made re reform. Those were my thoughts.
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This debate is stupid. USEF is a organization/club or company if you will. In the real world people get fired all the time for not following HR policies. Recent example is the MCDonalds CEO being canned for not following policy and dating a co worker (Not nearly as egregious as diddling minors).
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/03/b…sterbrook.html
USEF and Safesport can do what they want and should error on the side of caution when it comes to children. When they ban someone they are essentially firing them. They aren’t going to prison like they should be, they just have to go find a job that has nothing to do with USEF like 99.999% of the population does.
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